Well, it is a bit of insider humor. And I don't follow this history exactly so my dates may be off. But in the 1980s, the so-called "church growth movement" was big. The idea was not to speak theological truth and let people respond or not. But instead to try to be relevant. To discover people's "felt needs" and craft your sermons and church to meet those needs.
A seeker sensitive service was one without a lot of insider language and theological depth, designed to be comfortable for people who were exploring Christianity, perhaps, and wanted to ease into it.
The whole thing is just awful, to my way of thinking. Look, Christianity is a religion. It's a faith movement. As such, adherents need to be true to themselves. The calling of the church is to proclaim truth and justice, and to live lives worthy of our calling. People can join us or laugh at us or whatever.
And of course, churches that were "relevent and hip" and all that did tend to grow and become big churches. Joel Osteen might be considered an extreme example.
In the late 1990s, the idea of Church growth as a sign of God's blessing faded somewhat. Thank goodness. The emergent church movement well, emerged, and more emphasis is being put on being honest and authentic, rather than trying to figure out how to get people to join your church.
Interesting video. Sometimes, though, I think, in the 'emerging church' world, taking mean shots at 'the big boys' is the lower road. Like, that last line in the video was borderline hate-centered and not loving or fun-poking in any way.
Submitted by Ian (not verified) on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 10:22.
Size can cause problems at any church. Cathedrals can be isolating, the trade-off being that size gives you the money and concentrated talent to do cool things: run a Gregorian chant service, open a soup kitchen, etc. Megachurches were invented around the idea that growth for growth's sake as the primary indication that God favors a church.
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It's hard to see how one person can, in any meaningful sense, be pastor to 100 000. There is a danger to the megachurch pastor's soul, and I think that's what the video is addressing. Church growth for its own sake is something that often builds up the power and prestige of the pastor more than it edifies the congregation. This is not a trap that every megapastor falls into, but it is a temptation built into the heart of the megachurch model.
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Kin, the "only reward he's going to get" line references the sermon on the mount. If a pastor starts caring more about numbers than about the discipleship of every member of the congregation, then being "honored by men" really is the only reward that pastor can expect for his preaching.
I'm not sure that these guys are necessarily evil, just misguided, they are being led along by a faulty ideal and paradigm. Hopefully, they'll understand what they are doing at some point soon.
And I know that the quote is from the Sermon on the Mount, but I would say that had to do with doing these loudly to show the exclusivity of being an 'inner' law-following Israel, a form of guilt as it were. Jesus wasn't cool with that. The thing I had a problem with was the form and intent of the quote.
These guys are just misguided. Not evil.
I don't know, I'm just not into this video, is all.
Submitted by Gene (not verified) on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 12:58.
One good thing to come out of the "seeker-sensitive" movement was a change in language. Not in what was said, but recognizing that to reach people you need to speak their language. Certainly some vocabulary is inescapable, but there's no good reason to refer to the "narthex" when "lobby" will do, for example, and everyone will know what it means. Of course, I still find myself referring to it that way sometimes :-/
Submitted by Sally Ferguson (not verified) on Sat, 03/22/2008 - 12:04.
God's Word is still being preached. Remember Gamaliel's word in Acts 5:34-39? If it is of human origin, then it will fail. But if it is from God, then it cannot be stopped. May God's Name be lifted up!
Wishing you Easter blessings!
Submitted by rk (not verified) on Sun, 03/23/2008 - 22:15.
if a church grows exponentially, it must be doing something wrong. if a church is not growing much, it must be focusing on quality rather than quantity.
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 03/24/2008 - 16:36.
The only thing I found humorous about this is that someone WASTED time and money mocking fellow Christ-followers because the way they do church is different and entertaining. And I am so disappointed that you, a fellow Christian, would throw the very truths of the Bible that you preach from out the window and put your stamp of approval on this backbiting video by posting it on your blog. Why would your unbelieving friends ever want to join in our faith in Christ when they see that we are just as mean and vindictive as the world they live in is.
As the wife of a pastor and the daughter of a pastor, I am pretty familiar with the Bible. Jesus spoke to large masses and was entertaining as he told stories to make his points relevant. But these pastors, while not perfect (but who is really?) are ridiculed most often by other ministers for having large churches for reasons not even supported by the Bible.
God said go into all the world and preach the gospel. Translation: Reach AS MANY PEOPLE as you can to keep them from spending an eternity in hell. What my Bible doesn't read is the subtext-just don't wear Tommy Bahama shirts while you are preaching My Word and sell coffee to them afterwards. And don't drive anything nicer than a Honda Civic.
Are you serious!?
No wonder Christ was often angry with religious leaders.
1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
greatness...i'm sure the
greatness...i'm sure the video wasn't talking about any texas pastor in particular :)
Been there, seen that.
Been there, seen that.
Seeker-sensitive?
I don't speak the language. What's "seeker-sensitive" mean?
Well, it is a bit of insider
Well, it is a bit of insider humor. And I don't follow this history exactly so my dates may be off. But in the 1980s, the so-called "church growth movement" was big. The idea was not to speak theological truth and let people respond or not. But instead to try to be relevant. To discover people's "felt needs" and craft your sermons and church to meet those needs.
A seeker sensitive service was one without a lot of insider language and theological depth, designed to be comfortable for people who were exploring Christianity, perhaps, and wanted to ease into it.
The whole thing is just awful, to my way of thinking. Look, Christianity is a religion. It's a faith movement. As such, adherents need to be true to themselves. The calling of the church is to proclaim truth and justice, and to live lives worthy of our calling. People can join us or laugh at us or whatever.
And of course, churches that were "relevent and hip" and all that did tend to grow and become big churches. Joel Osteen might be considered an extreme example.
In the late 1990s, the idea of Church growth as a sign of God's blessing faded somewhat. Thank goodness. The emergent church movement well, emerged, and more emphasis is being put on being honest and authentic, rather than trying to figure out how to get people to join your church.
Interesting video.
Interesting video. Sometimes, though, I think, in the 'emerging church' world, taking mean shots at 'the big boys' is the lower road. Like, that last line in the video was borderline hate-centered and not loving or fun-poking in any way.
hate? it didn't seem so to me...
Size can cause problems at any church. Cathedrals can be isolating, the trade-off being that size gives you the money and concentrated talent to do cool things: run a Gregorian chant service, open a soup kitchen, etc. Megachurches were invented around the idea that growth for growth's sake as the primary indication that God favors a church.
-
It's hard to see how one person can, in any meaningful sense, be pastor to 100 000. There is a danger to the megachurch pastor's soul, and I think that's what the video is addressing. Church growth for its own sake is something that often builds up the power and prestige of the pastor more than it edifies the congregation. This is not a trap that every megapastor falls into, but it is a temptation built into the heart of the megachurch model.
-
Kin, the "only reward he's going to get" line references the sermon on the mount. If a pastor starts caring more about numbers than about the discipleship of every member of the congregation, then being "honored by men" really is the only reward that pastor can expect for his preaching.
I'm not sure that these guys
I'm not sure that these guys are necessarily evil, just misguided, they are being led along by a faulty ideal and paradigm. Hopefully, they'll understand what they are doing at some point soon.
And I know that the quote is from the Sermon on the Mount, but I would say that had to do with doing these loudly to show the exclusivity of being an 'inner' law-following Israel, a form of guilt as it were. Jesus wasn't cool with that. The thing I had a problem with was the form and intent of the quote.
These guys are just misguided. Not evil.
I don't know, I'm just not into this video, is all.
video
that...is...brilliant.
One good thing to come out
One good thing to come out of the "seeker-sensitive" movement was a change in language. Not in what was said, but recognizing that to reach people you need to speak their language. Certainly some vocabulary is inescapable, but there's no good reason to refer to the "narthex" when "lobby" will do, for example, and everyone will know what it means. Of course, I still find myself referring to it that way sometimes :-/
Just Trying
Just trying out your new comment options here. Wow, no more log-in. Where have I been? When did this happen?
Real Language
Certainly some vocabulary is inescapable, but there's no good reason to refer to the "narthex" when "lobby" will do,
'Purposed' is my bugbear. How many people in Real Life say 'purposed'?
'We purposed to use plain English'?
Look at the content of the message...
God's Word is still being preached. Remember Gamaliel's word in Acts 5:34-39? If it is of human origin, then it will fail. But if it is from God, then it cannot be stopped. May God's Name be lifted up!
Wishing you Easter blessings!
I've never even heard
I've never even heard 'purposed' and had to look it up. Purpose, yes, and repurpose sometimes, but purposed was new.
if a church grows
if a church grows exponentially, it must be doing something wrong. if a church is not growing much, it must be focusing on quality rather than quantity.
something just doesn't sound right.
Let me guess. You're a
Let me guess. You're a pastor of a small church?
Bitter, bitter old man. Can't be great, so we shoot all the ones who are.
Jesus, Jesus! We saw people speaking in your name and we told them to shut- up.
What!? Man, leave them alone. If they are not against, Me they are for Me.
I think I read that in a religious book once.
Many of you Christian pastors are just jealous dumb asses!
lol, I am the pastor of a
lol,
I am the pastor of a small church. Not proud of it, not ashamed of it.
"The great ones" Shoot at the pastors who are great? That's the point of the video, my friend.
Sin-Missing the Mark
The only thing I found humorous about this is that someone WASTED time and money mocking fellow Christ-followers because the way they do church is different and entertaining. And I am so disappointed that you, a fellow Christian, would throw the very truths of the Bible that you preach from out the window and put your stamp of approval on this backbiting video by posting it on your blog. Why would your unbelieving friends ever want to join in our faith in Christ when they see that we are just as mean and vindictive as the world they live in is.
As the wife of a pastor and the daughter of a pastor, I am pretty familiar with the Bible. Jesus spoke to large masses and was entertaining as he told stories to make his points relevant. But these pastors, while not perfect (but who is really?) are ridiculed most often by other ministers for having large churches for reasons not even supported by the Bible.
God said go into all the world and preach the gospel. Translation: Reach AS MANY PEOPLE as you can to keep them from spending an eternity in hell. What my Bible doesn't read is the subtext-just don't wear Tommy Bahama shirts while you are preaching My Word and sell coffee to them afterwards. And don't drive anything nicer than a Honda Civic.
Are you serious!?
No wonder Christ was often angry with religious leaders.
1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails.
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