wow preacher, you are brave! I mean, digging into the concept of hell is brave; but inviting a torrent of emails on the topic is braver yet!

I have often thought of this too -- doing a thorough search of the scriptures to find out what is the basis for a case for hell. I have done this in an offhand kindof way, mentally noting and cataloging references when they come across my path, but not systematically like you're talking about. I'll look forward to seeing what you post.

One thing that I think may be interesting to follow is how various passages are interpreted. Those who have extensive knowledge of the context of Jesus' time and place in history (not me) know things others of us are unaware of, which have the potential to drastically change the meaning of some passages. I will be interested to see where this goes and look forward to further posts on the topic (if one can be said to "look forward to" something relating to hell!).

Per the blog posting: this comment isn't an argument for or against hell. If you're not emailing your theology and just waiting to see it play out, a good book in the mean time is The Great Divorce by CS Lewis. It certainly gave me some food for thought on the subject of whether there is or is not a hell.

Thanks RLP for covering this, the idea of hell has been a stumbling block for me for a long time. It's hard to love a God that would do something that I (as a petty and angry human full of sin) consider cruel and disproportionate punishment.

Just a follow-up to the post. This post is sincere. I'm really wanting to know. Clearly I have a position. I'm not ashamed of it. I was a little light and funny early on in the post, but that was to make people come to grips with exactly what we are saying when we speak of hell.

I was going through the New Testament, having done a word search for hell and hades. And I realized that you really have to read the entire thing, which I am doing again, just looking for any clues to the reality of hell. And I thought, "I should post about this and get some help."

So while I have a position and will gently argue for it, I am also looking to see what the New Testament says. I think I know, having done the work that I have done. But we'll see what people come up with.

Thanks for posting about this. I look forward to reading the results.

I am a little dense at times so, do you only want that conservative, evangelical ideal of Hell, or other concepts that can be derived from scripture as well?

rlp, I've been reading you for quite some time now, and again after reading this post, I'm just SOOO relieved to see a sincere Christian do a little questionning, and implicitly giving me permission to do the same - even inviting me to do the same. I come from a tradition much like your own, and I'm taking a while to get somewhere else, and whether you know it or not, you're helping me. Thanks!

RLP, it is awesome that you are doing this. I'm excited to read what you and others have to say on this as it's a discussion I find myself in a lot! (though if you're a mainline cultural christian, I think 2 tends to be "bad people" in addition to "non-christians"...)
Thanks!

I'm thinking, I'm thinking... ;) I'll send an email, but I'm no theologian. I really want to see all the email you get in responses!!

I was reading a denominational statement of faith in a conservative evangelical church last week. They have one more item you didn't mention. Not only is hell a real place, for non-christians, and eternal, it's also "concious torment." Not just eternal torment, but hey, you're going to experience it to the fullest (no blacking out). I'd be interested in seeing the Biblical case for that.

This link will get you all 16 matches on Hell in the NRSV (all from the New Testament)
http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=85592244

This will get you the 10 matches on Hades in the NRSV (ignore the 5 First Testament matches, they are all on the word shades.)
http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=85592632

Finally, this last will give you the 14 matches for sulfur, which I believe is the word the editors of the NRSV use where older versions would have used brimstone. You'll find the six times it is mentioned in the Book of Revelation. The other passages (including one from Luke) seem to me to all be references back to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=85593114

Note: These lists give reference to single verses only. I strongly recommend reading the verse in context, which is made easier in these pages with a button to display the full passage for each verse.

Good Luck.

Real Live Preacher - I'm a big fan of your site. You might be interested in a book I wrote on this subject - it's called "The Last Word and the Word After That." In the middle of the book there's a chart that compiles most of the verses dealing with hell/punishment in the gospels. It might be helpful in your study. Keep up the good work ... this subject needs to be opened up. Thanks.

Here's the link - http://www.amazon.com/Last-Word-after-That-Christianity/dp/0470248424/re...

I trust you when you say you want to keep the discussion by email (and knowing how comment threads end up on the internet, I agree), but will you be sharing some of the theological results with us in public when you're done?

I'm not enough of an expert to offer up any scripture, but I would like to hear some of the cases, both for and against.

Note to everyone. Will I do a follow up post with information from the emails? Yes. I thought I would see what came in. I'll post the major points and scriptures and information given me. I hope it's not too much of an inconvenience not to let this happen in the comments, but I've been around long enough to know what this kind of thing can turn into. I'll compile the arguments and information in some convenient way and post it, maybe in a week.

Interesting topic! I am puzzled, though, by rule number 2. I understand the "no sheol" part, but "New Testament only" begs the question, WHY? If we are following the One who claims to fulfill the Law and the Prophets, we have to take the Hebrew Scriptures at least as seriously as our own testament.

Good point Kathryn, as I understand much of the early churches views of after life came from the Jewish view of the Hebrew scriptures. Some present day Christian traditions use both old and new testament to formulate their understanding of the after life.

*gasp* someone said IT out loud, or blogged it out loud anyway. What a relief! I am very interested to see your follow up post. This is something I have been questioning quite a bit over the last year.

#1: I am a universalist.

#2: The tone of this post comes off as confrontational, personal and somewhat nasty, with lines like "scriptures you say you love so dearly" and "imagine how embarrassed you will be." The content says you're looking for respectful discussion. The tone does not. If I were an earnest evangelical Christian who believed in hell, I think I'd be hesitant to reply.

If I just had an axe to grind, probably not.

Preacher,
I think this game may be rigged... but then again you and I probably come down in the roughly the same place on this issue, so maybe a thoroughgoing sola scriptura evangelical will feel differently. Either way I look forward to the results.

P.S.--Does anyone else think it's lame to post a comment plugging your own book?

Spiff

If there was ever a hook for a book, this investigation is it. I will await further postings on this topic with great interest.

~ Pascale

P.S. For some reason your site won't let me post under my own name. Frustrating!

I certainly hope so.

I don't really want to say much at all, except for...

...thank you, Gordon.
For sticking yourself out there.
As you always have.

As a side note: it's discouraging to see that "evangelical" now means exactly the same thing as "fundamentalist." There are lots of folk who take a fairly strong line on scriptural authority and generally come down on the conservative side of a number of issues (such as sexual ethics), but who see the need for thoughtful and informed exegesis and (for instance) aren't literalists about the first part of Genesis or the events described in Revelation. Time was, one could call such people evangelical but not fundamentalist. The fading of the verbal distinction raises the worry that people don't recognize the conceptual one--as if everyone on the right end of the theological spectrum thinks pretty much the same.

I wonder if when it is all said and done you will have the answer to that question, I doubt it. But I will look forward to some of the answers. But if there is not a Hell then why bother trying to get people saved? Or yourself for that matter,if we all end up six feet under, or Heaven.We can all love Jesus but to live for Him and try to live like Him is a different story. But I wish with all my Heart and Soul that there is not a hell, and if we have to do away with Heaven to do away with Hell and we all go to the same place then so be it. I have been a Christian for a long time and would love to know the truth on that and more so yet who would go there.(Hell,I mean) I enjoy everything you write and learn from it. Thanks,Mary

I understand your reasons for the inquiry, and I generally love your writing. It sounds as though you are trying to poke holes in a particularly nuanced version of hell that gets a lot of play in certain Christian communities.

I wonder how this squares with the creedal belief in Jesus' descent into hell. Since you are not of a creedal tradition (at least I don't think you are) perhaps that isn't an issue.

I guess what I'm wondering is are you simply debunking, or trying to come to a better understanding of this concept as it was operative with those who wrote and accepted those writings as scripture? In a sense it feels like you're doing an Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word, I do no think it means what you think it means.

This rules. So often, people avoid talking about stuff like this because they can't disagree without getting confrontational and disrespectful.

Now, you did kind of imply your own stance on the subject. And there was a dash of "Come on, prove me wrong." I'm a little worried that people from the other side will be dissuaded from participating as a result.

But I'm still very much looking forward to the follow-up posts.

After the 'hell' I've taken from some evangelicals over this issue, I really can't wait to see all the arguments for a literal lake of fire where demons torture God's enemies for eternity.

I'll try to organize my arguments against this view and email them to you, but I have a feeling that anyone who can read a bible actually knows them already.

Gordon,

Great idea. Thank you for doing this but as a former evangelical still fellowshiping with evangelicals I wonder if it will do any good.

Ihope you find some who take the scriptures seriously.

Blessing,

Bill
bill.finley@gmail.com

Hi RLP! I'm a recent Bible-college graduate. I've believed the standard evangelical doctrine on hell my entire life. That's why I'm very glad to see this post - not because I necessarily want to jettison the beliefs of my childhood, but because it's a subject I've turned over and over in my mind for five years, with no resolution in sight.

I believe in the eternal conscious torment position, but I have never had an answer as to what purpose that would serve in God's plan for the world. It seems to me to be a wasteful, inconceivable punishment that does not fit the crime. Nevertheless, it seems true to me that evil must be brought to a definitive end. From what I have seen of my own heart, it also seems true that evil has the potential to turn people into self-centered monsters who could not be shaken of their addiction to self-justification. This makes the position C.S. Lewis mapped out in "The Great Divorce" a possibility in my mind.

I am very anxious to see what this project turns out.

Thanks again Gordon,

Glad to have a chance to see how others chew and reflect on a challenging topic. Gives us a chance to revisit an issue that too often slides into cheap name calling.

I also look forward to reading what is submitted.

It's All Good Today!

Hi RLP, this is an issue I've struggled with from time to time as well, the answers always seeming too pat, so to speak. I'm very interested to see the results in a follow-up post.

I was even more intrigued when the same day I read this post, I got my church's newsletter in the mail, and the pastor's article was on... hell.

The article is here if you are interested:

I'm curious to know whether a hell where (b) doesn't apply (but (c) does) is much better...

I've also been curious for a long time as to why people can't 'become Christians' in any afterlife that might exist. Surely if there is an afterlife, we would still be human in some sense, and surely a critical part of being human is being rational, being able to choose - so why would our ability to choose Christianity vanish at the moment of death? Wouldn't that make us less human?

Finally, I'm curious as to why your list of ground rules has 2 number 5s. Are you trying to avoid 6 because it falls short of the perfection of 7? ;-)

RLP, I'd just like to comment on your statement: "True, our arrival will destroy her delicate culture and expose her people to deadly diseases and other Western things that will undoubtedly be harmful"

The "happy natives" myth is one that continues to be perpetuated. I would agree that many, many missionaries have gone into cultures and wiped out aspects of those cultures that did not need to be wiped out. Granted. You can tell a lot of specific stories, Hawaiian culture being an example. However, if you take a look at the horrific practices of many of the tribal cultures, you become grateful that the light of Christianity entered. Child sacrifice, twin murder, cannibalism, license to rape, to name just a few. Here in Africa, those who are not steeped in Christianity continue to practice a culture of fear and suspicion, with curses laid on any who dare to step outside the norm. This is not an opinion. Where I work, it is a fact. The birth rates in Africa have remained the same for many, many years, but the population is only now exploding. Why? Decent medical care being offered. Children living past age 5. This is in large part to missionaries. I'm not saying missionaries didn't make mistakes - far from it. But i get tired of hearing about how missionaries have destroyed so many native cultures. There were some things that I'm happy to say goodbye to. And don't forget to lay a lot of blame at the feet of people who were out to make money from the tribal peoples and their lands. Hawaii is a good example of this. The American Indians didn't lose their lands only because of missionaries. It's all about money, my friend. Thanks for listening. Cami

This is one hell of a project, RLP. ;-) I'm looking forward to learning more as these posts unfold.

And hey, thanks for

Sheol isn’t hell. Even conservative scholars agree on that.

-- I'm always delighted when that's acknowledged in print, because it seems like a surprising number of people miss that subtlety. *g*

How many members of Covenant Baptist would you consider evangelicals?

Great topic. I can't wait to see the replies. I have a (hopefully related) question, and hopefully it won't violate the rules laid down for comments here:


One thing I've noticed is that when you do see "hell" in English translations of the Bible, it is almost always written in lowercase (barring when it is being used to begin a sentence, and in some translations of Revelation 6:8 when "Hell" is personified).


In popular usage, however, it almost always seems to be capitalized. Granted, this seems to be more of something the fundamentalist laity does more than the preachers -- I've flipped through books by folks like Robertson and Hagee, for example, and they don't capitalize it. Still, I have to wonder if the increase in capitalization is because of a literal take on tradition. Any thoughts?

I found this essay by a Yale professor on the topic very helpful:

http://pantheon.yale.edu/~kd47/univ.htm

What you are researching sends me back to a specific search through the "Book" and commentaries. In the meanwhile I am sending a "patter" I wrote years ago to be recited between verses of the song "Old Rocking Chair" I would be singing at a church talent show. I came late to my faith. One of many reasons being this very subject of hell and the descriptions of this place in holy writ! My reaction to everything disturbing and controversial is a mental chuckle at myself for thinking I could possibly come to discover the many nuances of meaning to be discovered in any "Truth" even though my beloved Lord Jesus tells me knowing the truth will set me free!

PATTER FOR "OLD ROCKING CHAIR'S GOT YOU"

Most ofthe things you get somebody dies so you can get it, but you have to die your own self to get Everlastin' Life!

When you're dead as a doornail God gives it to you, and you can't get rid of it. You can't buy it, or sell it, or trade it. When you tke it to heaven with you, that's good, but when you have to take it to Heaven with you that's good, but when you have to tke it along with you to Hell, that's different. There is not a thing you can do about your Everlastinm' Life. You are going to get it, and you have to keep it.

My Dear Old Aunt Harriet was a Baptist and Momma let me go to her church sometimes when I was a child. That preacher used to holler himself red in the face about hell. When you get to hell with your Everlastin' Life the Devil waves his pitchfork at you and builds up a great big old fire underneath you and you wail and gnash your teeth. (Hee, Hee, Hee) or gnash your gums if you don't have any teeth left!

The Presbyterians tell us more about Heaven than Hell ahd how Jesus is there and how he helps us get there. That's where I have my heaart set on goin'. But if it turns out I have to go to hell I sure hope I go to the one for Presbyterians and don't by mistake get pushed in that horn punching, tail wagging and red hot blazing one the Baptists are going to have.

(BACK TO SONG) Feel free to change denominations to suit your own circumstances!

And there it is! Written over 20 years ago when I was just a youngster in my 60's. And now, because of you, it's back to the old drawing board!

Presby Gal's MoM

... that you are always taking things we think we understand and flipping them over for a look. Hell. The first thing that comes to mind is that I got in big trouble for writing "hell" on the board when I tried to teach Dante at an Orthodox school. One compassionate student explained later (correctly or not, I don't know), that the Jewish people don't believe in Hell. And it's apparently just a really bad word to write on the blackboard.

While studying what the NT says about 'hell', also take a look at other 1st century material like the Book of Enoch, which almost certainly influenced several NT authors (and Jude, for sure). The picture it paints in its later chapters of sinners being swallowed up into hell is truly horrific.

It may be non-canonical, but it does offer a wider perpective on 1st century thought on hell.

This is an area I've struggled with myself. Predictably, when I've raised the issue with evangelicals, it becomes pretty clear that I'm going against the flow on this one.

It'll be interesting to see what you find, though I echo others in saying that other first-century work should be illuminating on the Judeo-Christian doctrines of hell.

I'll keep my theology of an eternal Hell brief.

I believe very strongly that most people's first words in heaven will be, "Hey, you're not supposed to be here."

I have often wondered if I was going to go to hell. I remember going in for emergency surgery and thinking that I might never wake up. I had no idea what I believed the ultimate truth would be. Maybe everything would simply end. Maybe I was going to hell for my stubborn lack of faith.

Later, I resolved the issues which prevented me from becoming a Christian. I chose to believe. Or at least I think I did. But somehow, I seem to fail to live according to the things I choose to believe in.

I am selfish and unfaithful in every sense of those words. I don't know how to be any other way.

The only prayer I know is, "God, have mercy on me." If God is not merciful, then there is no hope for me at all.

Hi rlp,

By assuming that scripture is the only means of revelation, you've already skewed the responses in favour of fundamentalists.

If you've deliberately chosen to play by their rules, fair enough.

But by making the New Testament the only allowable source, you have excluded a whole bunch of us from the conversation. A lot of Christians believe that God uses a variety of methods to teach us about life, the universe, and everything. Reason, experience, even church traditions (like the creeds someone was talking about earlier).

As an example unrelated to Hell, I believe in evolution. It's part of my worldview and theology, I think for good reasons, none of which I can point to in scripture.

RLP, I suggest you take a look at Elaine Pagels' book, "The Origin of Satan" for context on the "Hell" question - her insights on Lucifer, in several aspects, also apply to his domain.

No matter what the final decision on hell turns out to be, I think we need to keep the word in our vocabulary. Many people would not be able to respond, "Hell, yes" or "Hell, no" or "Go to hell" or "It's hotter'n hell".

But you should also know that preachers need to retain this trump card. When all of the positive appeals to dedicate one life to God fail, the threat of burning in everlasting fire becomes very persuasive. I think it was Mark Twain who said, "What will all the preachers do when the devil gets saved?"

I totally understand why you don't want to hash this out on a public blog. But...

I am very interested in seeing the points that others have made and would love to see this discussion(without the crazy stuff)

will you post, for all of us to see, all of the non crazy points made to you in email, as well as the points you made in return? Even a summary of such discussion would be nice.

If the NT 'hades' is the Greek translation of the Hebrew 'sheol', then by excluding sheol I think you are excluding vital background information. It's completely relevant, not contradictory to the NT, and interesting as well...you know! The NT quotes the OT on 'hell', and going back to those passages (and others) has yielded incredible insights in my own study of hell-hades/sheol, gehenna, and the fire. So, you exclude it in your ground rules -accepted- but do you include it in your personal understanding?

I've put a ridiculous amount of thought into Hell. It's, like, the most important thing ever, you know. Mid-seventies average lifespan here, an eternity there. You would think that if people took it seriously, they'd be so psychologically warped in focusing on the afterlife to the neglect of this one, that they would skew the idea of salvation with it, and everyone's either miserable or not optimally happy because of a doctrine passed down since before the Greeks. Well, that does seem to be happening.
Honestly, and I have no right to recommend books like a snob, so I won't. Still, "The Shades of Sheol" by Philip Johnston, which points out the nonexistence of the fire-and-brimstone Hell concept in the Old Testament (all Sheol, as you say), totally had me convinced. Because, after all, it's straight-up evil for God to hide a fact for a few thousand years and then, oop!, oh yeah, you'll burn forever for being a heathen (they call this the *Gospel*?). But also a Greek interpretation of Jesus' use of what is falsely translated as "Hell", really being "Gehenna" -- as you know, a burning trash heap located southwest of Jerusalem. It was the perfect *spiritual metaphor* for a life squandered, broken from God -- oh, utterly, brilliantly perfect --, but we've lost it because of our post mortem neuroticism stemming from the popular Hell interpretation. I've rambled. I'm sorry. I couldn't help it. Sorta.

To keep it brief: if heaven exists, then logically, hell can't.

Not that hell can't be a metaphor, of course, for separation from God. But it seems to me that hell as an eternal punishment and state of horror can't coexist with a state of perfected bliss, and I spell this out on my current post.

RLP you are a braver man than I! I'll be watching this with interest to see just where it goes and how it gets there. For myself I am not at all sure that hell exists per se. I just don't seem to see the evidence for it scripturally (hence the reason I'll be watching!)

Earlier, in response to your statement: In THIS instance, please remember that I said the OT had nothing helpful to say about hell. And it doesn't.
I said, "That's not true. Isaiah 66:22-24 is a clear reference to Gehenna."

I also want to enter Daniel 12:2 for consideration:

Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I don't see how you can possibly exclude this, especially with the juxtaposition of everlasting life and everlasting shame.

I find that the most worthwhile part of the entire Bible is the Sermon on the Mount, a message of love, peace and goodwill. I know there's much much more in the Bible, but the essence of Christianity seems to be there.

In light of this, it's always upset and bothered me when people throw "you're going to hell" almost casually, and either precede or follow it with words about God's love. It only serves to alienate me from whatever they believe in.

I'm really looking forward to the results of this hell challenge. I think it's going to take a load off of a lot of people's shoulders, and certainly mine. So, thank you in advance for taking the time and effort to start this.

Asking me to preclude OT from the consideration of a NT understanding of Hell is like asking me to ignore Greco-Roman mythology when reading Mary Shelley's Frankenstein: or, The Modern Prometheus. You lose several levels of meaning, symbology and subtext. The NT is, ultimately, a document rooted in its culture: Judaism.

As someone with "hell" ingrained in my name, I figured it was only polite to express my expertise (joke).

I wish to respond to the scholars like B Nagel, ("Asking me to preclude OT from the consideration of a NT understanding of Hell ... You lose several levels of meaning, symbology and subtext.") who are disturbed that the historical and literary context of the OT were not "allowed" in this investigation. I, however, strongly agree with RLP's exclusion because Evangelical "fundamentalists" often have little understanding of any context outside of their own limited worldview. Pardon me for the generalization but the next time you run into someone condemning you to hell, ask him or her what sheol means or where the allusion to hell as a place of eternal fire comes from. While the "fundamentalist" preacher may know, their respective laity are surprisingly uneducated on history of the OT (and the NT) and the praxis of Christianity's Judaic roots.

This issue has been on my radar for several years now, since someone I know in real life wrote a book on this subject. You can visit his web site at http://graceevangel.org/GraceEvangel/home.html

I no longer believe in an eternal hell, and believe that there is ample Biblical evidence that ultimately God will save all.

Bob's book is a thorough-but-not-too-heavy explanation and outline of the evidence, and gives historical information on how Christianity got to the current idea of eternal torture. Very interesting stuff. I am glad to see other people looking into this.

Hey, Check out the pictures of my new emo hair
at http://tinyurl.com/5bts22