The Hell Thing
Hey, when I'm just writing to you guys, I've decided I'm not going to go back and edit much. Pretty much leave it just as it comes out of me. That would help and I'd probably write more of these if I do that.
Well, I've gone and opened up a huge can of worms. But I felt a strong...almost calling...to do so. Just so you'll know, I truly am doing the New Testament study on hell and hope to get some help in that from people answering. But I also want to shake up people a bit. I truly do think that what we say about hell is not very clearly taught - if taught at all - in the New Testament. I don't mind a bit if this piece shakes some people up.
Currently I have probably 6 or 7 responses. All very nice. Most from people who share my viewpoint and are providing their own scriptural study work. Which is good. Those who disagree either don't want to weigh in, or are busy building their case.
I'd be willing to bet there are a number of people who are really confused right now. And maybe getting angry. They have found the word hell in the gospels - It's used 12 times, all by Jesus. But those 12 times only represent 5 Jesus events. And in each of those times, the people going to hell are not outsiders, but people within the religious community who have been hypocritical, judgmental, and did not feed the poor and care for the weak and needy. In the language of evangelicals, it's pure "works theology" and that ought to bother them.
If people are honest, that should bother them greatly. If you are going to be "all literal" about hell, citing Jesus, then shouldn't you also be as literal about why people go there? Nothing turns a conservative hard-liner into a liberal, wishy-washy, "Jesus is just using metaphor" person quicker than finding out that their literalism might mean they are the ones going to hell.
heh.
sorry, I can't help but enjoy this a bit. In part because that's the journey I took. It hurt and was scary, but it was important. and this subject is important.
So I'll find a way to summarize and post everything that gets said to me maybe next week.
gordon
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Well I am thrilled that you
Submitted by Satchel Pooch on Thu, 08/14/2008 - 09:53.Well I am thrilled that you brought it up, and eagerly await the discussion. Such a loaded subject, and so often used to threaten and intimidate on the one hand, and to ridicule and dismiss on the other, without serious examination on either side.
On the same side
Submitted by alan on Thu, 08/14/2008 - 10:03.I wish I had more time this week to weigh in with my perspective, although it is much the same as yours. However, our trip back from San Antonio was rushed a bit with the news of a death in the congregation. Funeral was yesterday. Now I have to prepare for Sunday.
I eagerly await the summary of responses.
shalom,
alan
I went through a personal investigation into hell a while ago
Submitted by hattar (not verified) on Thu, 08/14/2008 - 16:11.Most of what I came up with was Jesus speaking very metaphorically and often once the words used to describe hell were put into their original translation they meant something entirely different from what we seem to have dreamed up. That aside I think Matthew 25 gives a pretty solid description of God sending people to hell. It's actually one of the things that leads me away from belief in the Christian God.
Any entity who gives eternal suffering to any creature, is not "good" as any reasonable person would define it. If a person tortured their child for any amount of time they wouldn't be thought of as loving, they'd be considered psychotic. Why is it that we change the meaning of "loving", "forgiving", and "fair" when we're talking about God?
"Depart from me, you who are
Submitted by revsparker on Thu, 08/14/2008 - 22:15."Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me."
So Jesus is telling this story about God separating people like a shepherd separates sheep from goats. A story. But it's a story that makes both RLP's point and hattar's. Of course, if this story is meant to be true, we're all in trouble. Every single human being who has ever ignored anyone who suffered...
Pretty bleak from a literalist perspective. Oddly, even though I'm a Universalist, I have always loved this story. I think Jesus sets out pretty clearly what is expected from good, moral, Godloving people. And yeah, it's about what we *do* or do not do, not about doctrine, creed, or belief.
Powerful stuff.
P.S. Can we do the same
Submitted by revsparker on Thu, 08/14/2008 - 22:16.P.S. Can we do the same thing about heaven/paradise?
Pleeeeeease?
not Biblical but
Submitted by alan on Fri, 08/15/2008 - 07:58.From The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam
I sent my soul through the invisible
Some letter of that after-life to spell;
And by and by my soul returned to me
And answered,'I myself am heaven and hell.'
It's a good study, RLP, but
Submitted by Jared Cramer on Fri, 08/15/2008 - 08:10.It's a good study, RLP, but I think that this doctrine is just one you can't solely base on Scripture. It'd be like saying, OK, everyone give me your Scriptural arguments for the Trinity. At the end of the day, you're just not going to have a very strong case. There are Scriptural "foundations" for a doctrine of the Trinity, but nothing like what most Christians believe is orthodox thought about the Trinity. Could it be that what happens to us after death (Heaven, Hell, Purgatory) is one of those areas of truth that Christ was talking about when he said that the Spirit would lead us into all truth, just like the Trinity?
I know that a bit of this is rhetorical for you, that you aren't a tunnel-visioned "Bible-only" theologian. But I do wonder if that rhetoric in this instance will limit the possible fruitfulness of a discussion of Hell.
Just my two cents offered from a place of deep respect for who you are and what you do here.
"We are told by the Holy Fathers that we are supposed to see in everything something for our salvation. If you can do this, you can be saved." Father Seraphim Rose, His Life and Works
http://www.jaredcramer.com
Agreed agreed agreed. But
Submitted by rlp on Mon, 08/18/2008 - 09:09.Agreed agreed agreed.
But this is a specific kind of exercise. I thought this through carefully. I'm only asking conservative, hell-believing people to do what they say they can do. These are sola scriptura Christians, or so they say. I want to know what the scriptures say or don't say. And I want people to come to grips with exactly what is driving their beliefs. It's one thing to believe in hell for cultural or philosophical or theological reasons. (I personally can't imagine why you would want to unless you had to, but...) It's another thing to hold those beliefs, assume they are clearly taught in the Bible, feel smug about how Biblical you are, look down on liberals and others because they don't follow the Bible, and be wrong about it all along.
I want people to at least say, "Wow, I guess the Bible wasn't as clear as I thought. I wonder WHY I believe that stuff?"
See? I'm pushing us according to a certain set of claims made by a certain set of Christians.
And there is this: I truly am looking for what the New Testament has to say about this. I'm not looking for what every junior theologian thinks about this. So the other aspect is that I'm really looking for help in my own search.
A question
Submitted by Keith (not verified) on Sat, 08/16/2008 - 05:18.If Jesus used the word, the word must have existed previously. (Otherwise, it would be like he was threatening to send people to Detroit, which didn't exist yet, so no one would know what the Detroit he was talking about.)
What did the word mean to the people he was talking to before he ever used it?
Can't wait!
Submitted by Simon on Sun, 08/17/2008 - 22:34.Dear RLP,
Not having any scriptural background really at all, I can't wait to read what comes out of this. I've never taken any sort of literal interpretation of what people "say" hell to be, so this should be both an educational and enlightening discussion for me to listen to. I'm REALLY surprised to find out that "hell" is only mentioned 12 times throughout the whole of the New Testament. You know, for as often as it's cited as a destination for the bevy of sinners that exist outside Christendom.
Cool!