Not to mention entirely relevant and critically important.

I could probably suggest a whole bunch of danger signals and pitfalls to avoid from my own experience, but I'll keep my screed until the Chicago convention.

I'm not so sure about Chicago, but it sounds like a good idea otherwise. I'm from Illinois originally, I've never liked Chicago, just don't get the attraction.

Besides, there's better beer in other parts of the country. Portland, Boulder, Bend, etc. I vote Portland, I've never been there and I've heard lots of good things about it.

I'd go in a heartbeat. But I could suggest St. Louis - a terribly overlooked town my friend. Besides there's probably some misfit Quakers, Unitarians, members of the Ethical Society and Pagans willing to toss into the mix.

Appreciated the post RLP. Especially from one who also believes in God, mostly but has her moments in this insane world.
Peace,
anna

I've never been there so that sounds good to me! Although not in the winter - too cold. Spring would be nice.

Yeah, I gave up trying to make everything I 'believe' line up with what it's supposedly supposed to line up with. I'm a complete heretic by most Christian definitions and that's fine with me. I just like that Jesus guy.

I grew up in the Christian church but after a few years of spiritual wandering I am now totally at that place. And I would LOVE to come to that conference. :)

If anyone in the Boston area wants to try out a spiritual practice in a place where you won't feel like you have to fake something you're not sure you believe, you should check out the Mennonite Congregation of Boston. Small and informal, they meet on Sunday evenings in another church's building and instead of a pastor, they have their members do everything. The only Bible-focused part of the service is a very short scripture passage and someone sharing a reflection. Then they have a guest speaker. The last one I went to was a wonderfully educated African American man who became a doctor during the civil rights movement and shared with us the experiences he had living and working at that time. He had published books on race relations and works as a consultant for the government on that topic. He spoke and church members asked questions and discussed things and then we all had coffee. It was the first time I've EVER experienced church in such a fulfilling and rational and even -gasp!- academic way. Fantastic.

Such a conference would be wonderful. Chicago is an awesome city. I resonated with your post (posts?) about your visit there, as an Atlanta resident who gets to go there for work on a regular basis. I guess your post/first visit was last year? The hot dogs and such.

I'd vote for having such a conference at Giordano's Pizza, for what it's worth. Chicago deep dish...

-
The city with the arch is one of the few places in the States where I've been for any significant visit, and I loved it. Plus? Their microbrewery industry is phenomenal!! The beer there rocks. In fact, they dub themselves "Beer Capital USA".

I'd try my damndest to get to a Misfit Convention. That would be one helluva weekend, or however long it lasted. I spurned my Catholic upbringing many years ago, and have no idea exactly what I would like to define as God. That sort of discussion symposium would be right up my alley.

I wish we could reliably recommend more places where this kind of intellectual and spiritual journey would be welcomed and supported within the Christian faith. Thank you for being one of those people/places.

And thanks for the advice. I'm a few years into that program and it's going really well.

No ass-kicking needed, I'm attending a great church in Fort Worth. The only tough part is explaining why they don't want me to join up just now. It's hard to convince people that you're an atheist (or whatever) when you are doing all the same Christian stuff that they do, and singing in the choir and reciting the creeds. I usually just say "I have theological issues" and they usually respond "I can respect that".

Thanks, though, for giving me permission to not believe in God. Not today, but when I read "The Preacher's Story..." I was struggling -- you know what I mean -- and felt wrong about going the directions I was going without first settling whether God exists or not. Your story freed me from that and I'm grateful.

Of course I'd be there. In fact, I wish it could be in Atlanta, just so I could help with the prepwork. Totally selfish, but what the hey.

Me too, me too! I'd love to come, too. If I hadn't been getting married this summer I totally would've traveled down for the get-togethers you had. I think the popularity of your site certainly shows there is a thirst for this conversation out there.

If you really want to do this right, let's go to Napal and sit with some Buddhists. Talk about spiritual journies with the folks who know spiritual journies.

But that defeats the "Can't aford it" deal you wrote about. Asheville is really nice. I'm from Atlanta, so I'd help with prep work if it were around here too. Just sayin'.

I've been in the "vaguely thinking about systems of belief" camp for a
long time. Some years ago, a friend and I went on a road trip to see
an old college friend be ordained as a priest. He's a good guy, and
I'm honored to know him. On that trip, we were invited to go to his
first Mass, at the church he'd be... um, an assistant deacon or
something at. It seemed like a church full of really nice people. We
sang songs. When we shook hands with the people next to us, they
seemed genuinely welcoming and interested in who we were.

The older priest gave the sermon, and he talked about how priests were
a doorway through which people could step, to reach God. It was
inspiring, and I could see how it was not just a belief but a
community. I started thinking "Hey, there could be something to this
church thing after all." Then he got to the point in the sermon when
he started warning about how everyone's faith was being tested, about
how the forces of evil were threatening families, putting forward gay
couples, unmarried couples having sex, as these mockeries of families
that you had to beware of.

And I (living with the man I would later marry) and my friend (gay),
saw that door to God slammed shut against us.

Thank you for being an open door.

If you want to come to Chicago, I'll be here.

Gordon, you HAVE to organize this retreat! Nothing could be more amazing. I would definitely attend, no matter where in the country it is.

In the meantime, does anyone in Washington or Oregon want to meet up?

I was brought up Catholic, which didn't suit me at all (except for the words which are beautiful) - and now after a long fallow period, I attend the local Quaker meeting where I live in the UK. It's quite a lot like what you describe - at least, that's what I value in it. There's a lot of people there who would call themselves Christian, and quite a number of agnostics and atheists, and some people from other religions. But none of that really matters either way.

Somehow, getting my spiritual groove on somewhere no-one expects me to believe in God makes the whole bizarre hypothesis more tenable than being expected to (or surrounded by people who) believe for sure.

It does seem counterintuitive to do the church stuff when you don't think you believe in God, but it's working for me. I like being there and knowing that there are people who can believe. That's comforting to me somehow. And feeling that I'm in a place where, if everybody knew that's why I was there, they'd be ok with that. That's good too.

I wish we could start things off for you with a big convention of misfit spiritual thinkers. That’s always been a fantasy of mine anyway. It would be mostly agnostics with some seriously troubled and doubting Christians thrown in the mix. We’d get rooms in a hotel somewhere and meet during the day to talk about God, the absence of God, the meaning of life, whether or not there IS a meaning of life. That kind of stuff. No one would think anyone else is going to hell. So we could all relax about that.

Um, Preacher...you just described my church. Are you sure you're not a UU?

I'm thinking hiring out a old school house in the heart of Cornwall. Walking to the local pub and drinking some 'home-brew'. Maybe even trying to darts, Aunt Sally and all that Jazz. We could even have Cornish Pasties for lunch.

One thing though; don't forget your coats.

I'm in a little town between Los Angeles and Santa Barbara.

Its called Ventura. We have hotel spaces and a few churches that might be willing to host something. The interfaith alliance is led by the Rabbi and the UU minister is very active.

As a former evangelical (current pastor in an evangelical denomination) I would love the gathering.

Besides we have the freekin ocean.

Just a thought.

But if it is elsewhere I'd try to go.

Blessing,

Bill
bill.finley@gmail.com

St. Louis is a great option and I say this not just because I live there. We're all going to need hotel rooms somewhere that we can all afford without getting into roach territory; St. Louis is more affordable (and probably easier to book) than Chicago. We've got Amtrak, an airport, BEER, ooh and we should have this misfit convention during baseball season so that we can drink beer in the stands and discuss... in between Albert's long fly balls... I would SO be in.

This sounds great. I'm pretty good on the God question, but have some serious conflict with Jesus (who I love) having to die to save everyone and how him being executed gets everybody else off on the sin rap. So, I could use some time on that topic at our conference, if anyone else has the same issues.

Also, I was recently in Chicago, and basically, it scared the crap out of me. And I didn't even have to drive! I'm not overly crazy about St. Louis either, but at least it's more home territory. I like the California idea, too. The ocean would be a lovely presence in this kind of gathering.

Maybe whoever is willing to take on the planning of the conference gets to have it on their own turf?

Yeah, this is pretty much exactly where I am.

rlp,

I grew up a very strict baptist. After a mid-life enlightenment, and 6 straight months studying the origins of the bible, along with the rationality of things like hell, original sin, and a theistic god, I ended up with the Quakers. Friends General Conference to be exact (there are different flavors, and FCG is the one that follows most closely to the original tradition). We sit in silence for an hour every week. All are open, and there is a very interesting bond that is created between members of the group. Can't explain it, but would recommend those who are looking for a spiritual outlet to check it out. Check out the founder, George Fox, and what he went through.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Fox

Sounds AWESOME to this (proudly beaming) Episcopalian.

But barring the conference, and someone took you up of the suggestion of an Episcopal church and ventured into my stomping grounds, I'd be so with you for the (metaphorical!) ass-kicking if I learned my bro's and sis's didn't treat you right. Let's just say, we'd have some words if I caught wind of it. But little danger of that. We've got some great people, and my bishop is always happy to proclaim "we don't make you check your brain at the door when you come pray with us."

But back to the main thing, all cutesy denominational pridefulness aside --- relationship with GOD. The conference sounds like a blast! I'd be there in a heartbeat.

Peace!

There are some congregations that seem like they'd welcome seekers. The Unitarian Universalists are also very open, but perhaps too open for most seekers.

Me, I'm all for Odin. Caw!

This is something that's been on my mind a lot recently. I was born Mennonite, but I was never baptized. I lean to some strange mix of Mennoniteism and Buddhism these days. I havn't been a part of a church well, ever really.

But the call to service runs deep in me, even though I ignore it too often. Many times I feel like reaching out to God again, or a church, or something. Usually this is when I make the mistake.

I look at what people say about God online.

I think my problem here is one of language, you see. I encounter words like glory, which for some reason have always had a military feel for it. I hear people talk about a throne, when we've known for a long time that monarchy is often corrupt.

But that's just the minor stuff. Pushing past that, I hit a wall of rules and judgements. I am no anarchist, I know that rules in life are necessary but once again, the words. I see people talk about love towards people doing thing X (being homosexual, getting a divorce, getting an abortion, eating shellfish) then usually I see that followed up with a knife covered in nice soft words, which usually ammounts to "We should hate what they are doing, and probably them too."

We should love BUT we must also hate. And so rarely does this seem to be talking about people as people. Rarely does it call for understanding. I mean, how does this not make your heart hard as stone, reducing people to this checklist?

Is there any real happyness to be found there?

I don't know, this probably isn't even the right forum for these thoughts. I just needed to say them to someone.

I was born Catholic. As a teenager, I rebelled against what I saw as empty rituals. At 14, became an enthusiastic born again Baptist.
...
30 years of life happened. Now, at 50, I am...? Not sure.
...
I do not really think I belong in any church. Churches kinda scare me.
...
I go back and forth between there is something out there, to there is nothing out there. Okay, most of the time, I think there may be something out there, but it probably bears little resemblance to what we term as "God." Hey, maybe that is a good thing.
...
I think of myself as spiritual because I think we are more than the physical form we can see and touch. But that "more" could just be the energy that animates us and when we die that energy will just get transferred into another physical form.
...
Hope I come back as a bird.

I've been attending the Episcopal Church for about three years and what you say about the liturgy, the "prayer and worship and all that ritual stuff will be very important to you, since you're not sure if you believe in God. You won’t have any nice, lovey-dovey God feelings to sustain you, so you’ll need to lean into what you have." is very true. It is what brought me back into the church and what keeps me coming back, both to corporate and private worship. The Book of Common Prayer is a beautiful work.

I hope that somehow it matters less what you feel you believe and more what you do for your faith.

Thank you for this.
~dana.

Count me in for the misfits convention too...

You say "I’ve always thought that what you do with your life and your body is more important than what you say and think" and I agree with you on one level. But I always have sense of discomfort when, for example, I recite the creed with the rest of the congregation, because I don't know if I believe in "one God, Father omnipotent, maker of Heaven and Earth..."

Although I can tell myself "just join in, it's part of the ritual," I still feel like it's just not honest of me to say that stuff. And intellecutal honesty and integrity have become more and more important to me over the years...

I usually get around somewhat by swapping all the 'I's for 'we's. Then I can justify it to myself by saying the creed is about what the Christian community believes, not what I personally believe.

Thanks rlp, I 'came out' to some good Christian friends this weekend as a not-always-able-to-believe-in-God kind of a Christian as opposed to the i-know-what-i-believe-all-the-time kind of Christian they always knew me as when we first became friends as undergraduates...

They were actually wonderfully understanding and having just read this latest blog, I feel even more affirmed in my choice to be more open with people about the fact I just don't believe in all of it anymore - just some of it, and only some of the time.

The convention I go to every year to meet with similar 'unbelieving' types is the British Christian Arts Festival 'Greenbelt' - a place you would be most welcome.

As someone who is: a) not a christian and b) a frequent reader of your blog, it always amazes me how well you write about the feelings of non-believers.

It has been years since I have graced a church doorstep but there are days when I think that it really might be the answer. Then I remember all the past experiences and how much happier I am now. I don't know if it is because churches don't do a good job of explaining the answer or if it simply does not rest inside them, but I always feel disappointed after I leave a service. Like I wanted so much more but its just not there.

To add to the unrest, I have recently moved to San Antonio and am only minutes away from the Real Live Preacher. A very strange thought for someone who has been reading your blog for...(pause to think)...about 4 years now. I'd like to visit this little church that is written about so often but looking for God online and meeting him in person are two very different things.

What about us agnostics who know a lot about Christianity, but have panic attacks every time we come within 50 feet of an actual church? At least, that's what I think they are - heart racing, cold sweats, light-headedness...you know? I even threw up and nearly fainted at my Grandma's funeral.

Anyway, Chicago would be sweet. I can actually drive to Chicago.

the goal isn't to get us to be something other than what we already are. I think power of something like this would be in explaining that there is no goal to get folks in church or thinking in a certain direction, that doubt isn't necessarily something that must be worked through, but something that must be experienced.

And, I don't think we should limit it to Christianity. Why not, So You Want to Try God? And invite Sufis, Hindus, etc. For me, my faith in God was renewed by finding God active in other religions other than the one of my birth.

Anyway, all that to say, if I can find a babysitter, I am totally there. Wherever, whenever.

Sure, give Christianity a try. Why not? It means nothing more or less than any other system of belief, and believing in God or even that God exists or the divinity of Jesus is pretty optional too. You can rest assured that God, if there is one, loves you...that is, if you think you could possibly know the "mind" of a being that does or does not exist, that is all-powerful, all-knowing, etc., etc.

Thank you for writing this. It describes exactly how I feel and how I wish I could communicate my personally confusing and often conflicting beliefs about God and Christianity to my friends. Chicago ho!

Sounds like you want a congregation that's both pro-doubt and Christian. Sounds like Christian Unitarian Universalists are exactly what you want.

"I don’t know why this is, and I don’t feel like unpacking it right now, but some of my favorite people don’t believe in God but are looking for something spiritual."

I can tell you why it is. It is because they are more open than either Christians or atheists, who think they have got it all sown up.

Your idea of a convention sounds very intriguing. The problem is that we would require some kind of screening at the door because I'm not sure that I could abide the presence of the "real Christians" because most of them are real flaming assholes who have done more to screw things up than any contribution. Christianity in America is now epitomized by the hucksters on TV and their extravagant life styles.

(RLP, we exchanged some email in March 2004 after i wrote http://ourpla.net/cgi/pikie?RedemptiveLoveAndOriginalNonSin )


The conference sounds like a lot of fun. I'd be more likely to go in Portland, Oregon. Or heck, Eugene (which is where i actually live). Even though i'm not so much in doubt about god as i am about institutionalized religion, but i have a feeling you'd welcome my kind as well.


Wherever you do it, i highly recommend getting a decent Open Space facilitator to provide the kind of framing/structure that won't be noticed because it works so well. I might do it if it's here in Oregon. Or i can point you to some very cool Open Space facilitators in Chicago.

• http://www.co-intelligence.org/P-Openspace.html
• http://www.openspaceworld.org/
• http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?OpenSpaceWorldNET

You can do this cheaply - work your network to get a free or low-cost venue, and have people travelling stay with friends (yours or theirs) in town. Use http://couchsurfing.com/ and you'll probly get even more interesting people to come.

Thanks for this post. It made me smile. I'm very much the agnostic-y sort of guy, except I've been around the church loop more than once. I feel like I've been, how do we say, Bart Ehrman-ed in my faith, so it's kind of gone. But after all the scariness it's sort of okay, whether I believe in God or don't. Maybe, sort of. And I've found I have more appreciation for the Anglicans now, but maybe that's just the Compline talking.

Anyways, thanks. You and my select few emergent-Catholic-Orthodox-heretic (at least to most Baptists) friends are what make me think that there may after all be something to Christianity besides a bunch of hot air.

http://thinktoomuch.net/2008/12/01/so-you-think-you-want-to-try-christia... - we have another 20 comments there, though few of us are your intended audience.

To believe in god or not to believe in god that is the question...We have answers..

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Hi rlp, I'd just like you to know that your my new favorite person right now.

Show up and do the singing and praying and liturgy stuff. Enjoy the archetypal beauty of it. Let go and be ancient for awhile. Go to church. Talk to “God.” Talk to people you meet. Be about the journey and be listening. You’ll be fine.

I just noticed the newer string of comments. I have it setup to email me now. I never had that before. I tend to read comments for a few days then move on.

As a writer, and having posted about 2000 things over the years, I move on. Right now I can't even remember what I said. Isn't that funny? I'd have to read it.

I did go to the site where there was further discussion, mostly from atheists I think. Wonderful. I assure all of you that, as a philosophy major and a person who reads broadly and, I hope, thinks broadly, I've considered this question from many angles. And since I gave up the rather out-dated idea that people are going to hell, I feel fine. Why would I care if someone thinks something that I don't think?

I really can't understand people getting into arguments about, essentially, metaphysical questions. You think what you think. You try to figure out life as best you can. And hopefully you listen to others along the way. Only insecure people get angry over someone else's honestly held, peacefully held, beliefs.

I did go to the site where there was further discussion, mostly from atheists I think. Wonderful. I assure all of you that, as a philosophy major and a person who reads broadly and, I hope, thinks broadly, I've considered this question from many angles. And since I gave up the rather out-dated idea that people are going to hell, I feel fine. Why would I care if someone thinks something that I don't think?

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And I'd love a conference like this. I'd want to bring my husband, who would probably not like the daytime sessions, because he says he believes in God, but he's pissed off at him. The beer, movies, laughter, and pranks might just get a hook in him, though.Zevkli-Forum
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I'd go in a heartbeat. But I could suggest St. Louis - a terribly overlooked town my friend. Besides there's probably some misfit Quakers, Unitarians, members of the Ethical Society and Pagans willing to toss into the mix.

Appreciated the post RLP. Especially from one who also believes in God, mostly but has her moments in this insane world.
Peace,
anna
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I think my problem here is one of language, you see. I encounter words like glory, which for some reason have always had a military feel for it. I hear people talk about a throne, when we've known for a long time that monarchy is often corrupt.

But that's just the minor stuff. Pushing past that, I hit a wall of rules and judgements. I am no anarchist, I know that rules in life are necessary but once again, the words. I see people talk about love towards people doing thing X (being homosexual, getting a divorce, getting an abortion, eating shellfish) then usually I see that followed up with a knife covered in nice soft words, which usually ammounts to "We should hate what they are doing, and probably them too."film izle
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I think you should attract more and more people by other ways too. Its good for them.

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I think a good preacher can attract people to his religion easily.

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Born Baptist and then raised non-denom evangelical led me to agnosti-atheism. In 2005 I started going to the Episcopal Church and found it exactly like you said-- welcoming and cerebral. It's diverse theology and beautiful liturgy kept me there.

I've thought several times that for me the liturgy is so important, especially on those days when the rational/scientific side of the brain kicks in and belief in God isn't so much happening. I am reminded of the Buddhist Noble Eightfold Path... where (simplification:)the correct intentions lead to correct actions which eventually leads to correct knowledge. Sometimes, the knowledge isn't there, but continuing with the actions of the faith and actions of worship helps to build that knowledge and assurance. There is peace and welcoming in the liturgy... one of the many reasons I stick with the Episcopal Church, and a non-liturgical church is not for me! (Though I miss Praise & Worship music)

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