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Hello, rlp here.
 
I've planned on having discussion forums, and a nicer discussion software package is in the works. Until then, I thought I would try out the standard package that comes with Drupal. It's really just the same thing as a regular page, but oh well....
Normal rules of polite engagement and decorum apply.
Have fun.

I have lived this life you speak of.  I have screamed those screams that I feel were never heard.  You post this on the day I was born, sometimes a day I wish had never happened.  I was reminded quite often that I was just a burden in this life. 
Only now am I able to at least see that he hasn't destroyed my faith.  I have never blamed God, I've always known whose fault it was.  I look to God to give me the strength to get thru these demons that were my life, to help me see that there is hope, and with prayer maybe I will get thru it.  That's up to God.

I need God for This:

Four years ago, a Boy spilled iced tea under a refrigerator, and a man who had a bad day at work and a rough time kicking a drug habit picked the Boy up by the neck and throttled him until the Boy spent three days in the hospital.
Four years ago, a woman and a man were trying to recover from the loss of her first pregnancy, and they weren't really coping at all well with it. She stopped going to christenings, he stopped going to church.
Three years ago, the Boys mother shifted gears from OxyContin to heroin. The Boy's psychiatrist put him on Ritalin and Prozac for anxiety. He stole food. He gained 50 lbs. He missed the man who had throttled him.
Three years ago, a woman and a man went to a fertility clinic. They went to an adoption agency. They weren't lucky enough or rich enough to succeed at either one. They stopped talking to God about it, and they stopped talking to each other.The woman stopped seeing friends, started seeing a counsellor. The man stopped being a catholic charities mentor, because every Boy was a Boy he'd never have of his own.
Two years ago, a Boy started planning on being homeless. He ran away from the house at night and sat in parking lots with strangers. He hid cans of food in the woods. He vandalized a Post Office; he got arrested.
Two years ago, a man heard about a Boy, and went to court with him and his mother. A woman read an article about two children who died in foster care, and got angry enough to want to do anything.
1.5 years ago, a Boys mother was arrested. A Boy asked to stay with a man and a woman. A man and a woman said yes. The State of NJ said yes, but couldn't find a name for what they were- the judge referred to the man and the woman as the Boy's whatevers, and made it official.
Yesterday the Boy came home from a visit with his mother. He played a guitar for a couple of hours, and showed his Whatevers the B he'd gotten on an algebra test. They celebrated the 1 year anniversary of the end of his probation. They made and ate dinner. They did homework. They hugged each other goodnight, and grinned at each other on the stairwell.
Thank you, God, for all of it.

Some children's screams are unheard well into their adult years. I have a friend whose screams were unheard as her stepfather raped her from childhood until her early twenties. Now she is angry at God for not rescuing her. As much as I love God (in whatever small way a mere human can love the infinite), I can't really blame her.

Rick shared the following quote in your chat room recently and I really liked it and saved it in a file:  "In a sense, God had to take the risk: if He wanted there to be love, He had to give us freedom.
And by giving us freedom, He gave us the possibility of rejecting His love.
Freedom therefore implies the possibility of doing evil. 
The world was not created evil.
But God took the risk because He wished there to be love."

That alone seemed to me to be sufficient to be memorable.  However, the quote went a bit further, which I also find interesting: "This is the true meaning of the Christian doctrine of Hell, which is so widely misunderstood.
God does not condemn us to Hell; God wishes all humans to be saved.
He will love us to all eternity, but there will exist the possibility that we do not accept that love and do not respond to it.
And the refusal to accept love, the refusal to respond to it, that precisely is the meaning of Hell.
Hell is not a place where God puts us; it's a place where we put ourselves.
The doors of Hell, insofar as they have locks, have locks on the inside."  Rick found the exact reference for this quote.  It was written by Kallistos Ware and was published in: Ordinary Graces: Christian Teachings on the Inner Life
Lorraine Kisly, ed.
ISBN 0-609-60674-3
BellTower, NY (publ.)(c) 2000
This helps me in considering God relative to the existence of evil.  However, for people (children in rlp's post but there are more than just children) who are mistreated, abused, tortured, etc. access to God's love can seem very remote.  In thinking about that I am starting to find zen philosophy useful.  There is pain in all lives (and the examples rlp gives must be among the most painful), but we can manage whether we suffer.  I find comfort in the knowledge of God's love which can make dealing with the pain easier, which in turn reduces suffering.  This is not to say that I've mastered suffering in my life, but I pray that with God's help I'm at least moving in that direction on my spiritual journey through life.
Peace,
JoKeR
(p.s. all my careful formatting of this post in the nice Xinha text editing window is not reflected in the display of the post.  I don't know if anything can be done about this, but it doesn't help the discussion.)

Good vs. Evil.  The problem that faces humankind since for ever.  It is up to Adults, or the powerful, to protect and keep safe children or the most vulnerable in society.  All too often people succumb to the evil in society, and spread the evil to children who can not fight or have a chance to know goodness.  When I am confronted with evil and the prospect that my Daughters or Son will fall victim to evil I must pray and repeat the Mantra, "God is good.  God is good!  God is good!"  In this I have faith that God is good and God does hear the cries, and screams of the helpless.   It is then that I realize I must stand in the face of evil.  I must teach and preach peace and love.  I must love my children and their friends in such a way that Evil is not the ultimate power in the world.  I must love, and care, and speak in such a way that others know and experience love.  This is what helps me, but often I cower and turn away hoping someone else will take up the mantle.  And I Pray, "My father in heaven...", "LORD save Me!" 

rlp, Thank you for this essay, I read it admits the sounds of children playing which is a beautiful thing. This pain, this evil of which you speak is indeed the greatest horror of this world and it not only grieves me, it angers me to see it happen in such abundance. I have screamed at God and the world from that grief and anger and I have held the small ones dealing with agonies beyond my imagination. My stomach has turned as I've witnessed the perversion of a child's world and I have thought at times that I could go so far as to make a bargin with the devil to give these children the life without such atrocities. As the devil belched his evil stench into the sweetness of my family, of my two daughters, I cried myself to sleep night after night after holding my daughters as they cried them selves to sleep from yet another nightmare. My husband's heart was broken as two precious blessings in his life experienced great pain that he somehow felt responsible for but he couldn't comfort because of their fear of being touched by a man. And the evil was even uglier because it was caused by one in many ways still a child himself and one we love. We were confronted with the reality of such evil from the hands of another child and our church family responded as we all want to respond to distance the hurt- look away. Time after time we were told to pretend this had never happened, that maybe our children wouldn't remember what they had been through and so we were left alone surrounded by this evil, abandoned in the clutches of the devil. For such a long time we felt lost and alone even with counseling for our family and we read the book of Job over and over again. I have heard people speak of God's faithfullness but I couldn't see at times. But then, out of the ugliest place I've ever been, beauty was born. I would never have recognized it but for two things: I was surrounded by such ugliness and because of my daughter. She prayed for the person that had introduced her to the vileness of the world's evils. From the sweet voice of a 5 year old girl came the prayer we all need prayed over us but she prayed for one that deserved to have his life ruined. Her life and the life of her sister will always be touched by this evil. They, unlike many of us, will never be able to turn away from face of pain but they have shown many the greatest beauty of grace. Together we seek ways to see beauty in the ugly, to embrace grace admist evil. And now, a year later, I know how beautiful the simple sounds of children's play truly is. Thank you for your essay, I will be linking to it from my blog.

Jessica
www.onourfaceworship.blogspot.com

Thank you for the essay.
I once asked God to show me where He was as my father knealt on my bed his hot breath rasping in my ears and his hands where a fathers hands have no right to be. "Here" God replied and showed me the cross with the body of His batterered and bloodied Son.
Our cries are never unheard because He is always listening.

As a father, in such situations, I think I hurt more because I couldn't do anything.... God does his part, why couldn't I have done something...? But God is the only one that can see us through. Any time you look for God as being out there some place... you won't find him... He is within us. The evil was done to God as well as your sweetie.... He hurts more than you do.

Your daughter is lucky to have a father who cared. I grew up in unspeakable horror, the gamut from incest to attempts on my life, alcoholic rages where I was slung against a wall and my father had a fistfull of hair. My mom knew of the sexual attacks and kept notebooks of every time he came into my room, filling up two notebooks with entries, several per page. At the age of 8 I gave up on God. And what preserved me was the can of Draino I hid to take if things got worse (when I got older my suicide stash got more sophisticated). I lived a life of rebellion against God, hated God, resented God and my parents. Lately I have an uneasy acceptance of God, I have forgiven my parents(not that they are absolved of what they did), and do not know if they made it to heaven or not, but at least I do not want them in hell. I am still angry at God, a God who could part the Red Sea, raise the dead, add years to a person's life, stop the sun, and HE did not care enough about me to help me in this situation. Why? Does He hate me so much?
People tell you that God cried with you (would he have done something more powerful - or at least let me feel His presence that I would not have been so alone, did He not care that His absence would cause me to run away from Him for so many years.) People tell me about free will - I sort of understand it in principle, but one thing they forget, God did NOT give ME free will. He never came to me and said, "Your father is intent on abusing you, do you mind if he does?" No, free will is very expensive for the victim. And yes, I know that I too hurt others, and would not want to be judged according to my judgement of others, but it is a hard pill to swallow.
Then they tell me that God was preparing me for a future ministry. Sure wish His recruitment plan was more friendly to me. Yes, I am using what happened to help others, but at what cost???
Then there is the part that was destroyed by what the abuse did. There is a part inside that is forever broken, a part that can't receive love, that can't deal with abba Father, or God's love in that way. A part that will never be filled because it was broken at an early age.
Then there is the sense that you are so different from many around you, that you have to watch and try to look normal, when inside all you feel is ruined. And there is the sense of dirtiness that never goes away when you are sexually abused.
Where is God in this? Platitudes do not help. How can I pray to God and trust that He will be there for me now when He let me down so powerfully in the past?
I don't know if you want to read the whole testimony, but it is on the october 7, entry on my xanga account under wondering04.
Now I have been saved, have begun to deal with God better, but nothing comes easy, and trust of God is so slowly built. I kind of feel that maybe, because God did not intervene, that perhaps He did not want me in His kingdom, so I walk softly in God's kingdom, hide in corners and hope not to be noticed. I am not certain the hurt will ever end.
Sorry for venting, but it is so hard to understand how anyone can hurt a child. I am praying for your daughter, that she finds peace in the midst of this hurt, and that God guides your hand in dealing with her.
Heather

My most respected mentor offers that there are many things that rattle faith, and in those moments living faithfully is a constant that is all we can hope to be able to offer.

My own experiences continue to keep me from feeling able to explore my beliefs,I'm trying to rewrite my story with the help of truth, but it is a long process and Not understanding, not knowing keeps me in the wilderness that is ever changing as I learn the truths about my own story.

Finding comfort in knowing that there is a God who promises to be with me at all times in all places through all moments, both bad and good does not bring me comfort,there have been very few times when I've understood the power of that statement and promise. I don't blame God for what happens,he/she created us and let us loose- I struggle with placing blame/responsibility for pain and hurt, but rarely do I shake my fist at God,and when I ask why? It isn't why did you let this happen, but more why did you let ME happen.

 I just read this listening to Soul Coughing's "St. Louis is
Listening"... it took the course of the whole song to finish the essay.
By the end, the noises and dissonance is almost unbearable. It's a
violation of the nature of music to have such disarray in a song. To
have an unmelodic scream, some screaching noises, and some gravelly,
disconnected voice yelling "you don't use words like that / St. Louise
is Listening".   It's a violation of conscience which
causes me (and others) far more pain than is necessary. It's when I
allow the noise of my conscious mind to be drowned out by the
screeching of life's rush hour traffic that I can mindlessly do
horrible shit that causes pain.

My dad ran a boy's all of my life. I grew up with the lines between
friends and family blurred beyond repair, as my friends / brothers were
all victims of such dispicable stories that I saw the world as wholly
bad, and my family as it's only refuge. Grown, I see that it's far
deeper than that. I see that I'm fully capable of the first step of
violation of my Jimminy Cricket character who warns of bad decisions
and the consequences that I can't yet see. I disobey him regularly, and
see the other side. And I regret it. Always. God, please don't
let us forget. Don't let us get caught up with the pride of feeling guilty. All the while, keep
us focused on the humility of compassion, and know that you bore the weight of our
eternal guilt. Our capability to be depraved, disgusting people. And
uncolor the blood on our hands for watching disgusting things happen
without doing anything about it. Not. A. Single. Fucking. Thing.

... the man who knew too little.
... David. www.davidjacksonproject.com

have been that child and dealt with that evil... except my own personal hell was an alcholic stepfather who put a hole in the wall with a hammer one day, threatened to kill my sister the next, and then told me I was worthless the day after that. The week before my high school graduation I found myself being asked by that same small man dieing in a hospital bed from a failing liver, to simply pray for him. Grace admidst the evil. And I was changed.

Ten years of survival prayers. And his answer was Forgive. And I was changed. So much evil in this world. Thirty years of life and a survival prayer lifted from the Garden "Father if you are willing take this cup." And his answer was Forgive. And we were all changed.

Always look for grace in hell. It doesn't condone the evil. It doesn't keep you from seeing a hammer coming at you in your sleep. But, it helps you get through the day and be ok. Take it for what you will.

ok,

so far the conversation has been the evil that we have suffered.

i, too, have suffered evil to live and breathe and done nothing,

i, too, have felt that hot breath on my neck and felt the blood run from between my legs.

but i think i suffer the most when i

choose to do evil

knowingly

to try to hide the pain inside.

not huge hitler evil either

just slow subtle digs to another's well-being

choosing to not do what i know i should

turning my back on a God who loves me.

the small evils that i do cause me to suffer the most.

There is so much that needs to be done and to some extent we all feel so impotent to do anything about many evils and especially evil that innocent children endure. I make some little efforts sometime to work against these evils but it is so little that I almost think what is the use. I think if the problem gets better it will be with God helping us to act. I believe perhaps the most helpful thing would be if all religions would stress this world as well as a possible afterlife. Subconsciously, when we think of starving children for example I think many of us rationalize God will take care of them in Heaven. Perhaps but they are hurting now.I think it would be a much better world if religion stressed working together on this worlds evils.

If only for this I DON'T need God.

I think it is strange that God is so comforting to those who witness evil. Somehow, a few prayers and pious meditations seem to make christians feel better about genocide in Rawanda, or lymphoma among little boys, or porn featuring little girls.

On the otherhand, belief in God doesn't seem to be worth a damn to the people being hacked to death by machetes, bled to death by cancer, or degraded to death by pedophiles.

All too selfishly, Christians see evil as "their" problem. But if evil is the problem of the "them" that suffer, than the real question is, "where is the God who tolerates hell on earth?" Where are the Christians who hold their God of "love" accountable?

I empathize with those here who have responded effectively: if only for this I don't need god.  I was blown away when I read your essay the first time.  I've been that child, too (thankfully, only once).  Still, that one experience was the beginning of my end of my faith.   When I see people such as yourself using experiences like this to cling to their faith, I'm simply shocked...and perhaps a little jealous.  I remember sitting in the foyer of our church as a child watching fellow churchgoers whose faces were cheerful in the midst of disaster assuring everyone that this god they worshipped would bring something hopeful and good out of their lost jobs, brain tumors and sick children.  I wonder.  How did I get here and you there?  How can similar experiences place us on opposite sides of this gulf?  Is it something I am lacking? 
Those who respond like this sound angry because they are.  They aren't angry at you or other believers.  They're angry at the sheer abandonment of it all and, I suspect, grieving the loss of their faith.  If god does not exist to prevent evil such as this, then why would he exist at all?
Sara

“The problem of evil” is a problem of our outmoded theology – a “god” who “allows” evil is a puppetmaster god who decides our fate and generally runs the world.  And if that picture of God breaks down in the face of reality, then I think that picture’s just too small for what God really is.  Recently a friend wrote me, asking if the pain he was suffering was God’s way of making us remember God … No no no! I said – then God would be not only an autocrat but a tyrant, and would deserve our rejection.
  Zen Buddhism helped me, too, with the question of suffering – it made me a more committed Christian, in fact!  I really believe that God created this vast, diverse human family and invited us into sacred relationship … our freedom is in our vision – do we see our connectedness in God, or do we believe this “apparent” separation, each of us a separate universe on our own?  What we see and how we answer determines if we treat others with love or with fear and violence … So yes, Hell is right here, where we (collectively) buy into this illusion of separateness, and maybe into the illusion that God therefore ought to look after each one of us separately, that God owes us protection from each other.  But what if God gave us each other ... for protection??  Being human is a collective project, not an individual one.  That’s our freedom – how shall we be family?  God invites us into love, and if we stand for love and respect, that is a faithful life.  Not everyone on the planet is always capable in every situation of remembering love and our family connection … this is the plane God gave us to live in and on, and with each other (in my experience) is where we experience the divine or the diabolical. 
  If we must see God as a loving Parent at all, God is one whose head’s shaking in sorrow over the bickering adult children who seem to have forgotten all they were taught.  But remember, God is LIKE a parent … but God is not ACTUALLY a parent.  Metaphors are not descriptions, so we ought not judge God on our dimly construed ideas of God.  We live in a 3-dimensional world, in bodies; let us together take responsibility for what’s broken by trying to remember we were born from sacred Wholeness.
 

I have been chewing on what I read here all day. And then I came across this sentence in a reflection on the tradition of lament- crying out to God in protest against God's inaction:
"I need a life of prayer that reminds me that I am not, finally, the one who justifies God's ways. Rather, I am a creature who is justified by God's grace and charged with not missing the pleasure that comes from trying to make a more just world."

I'm new here: please forgive me if I unwittingly cause offence. That is not my intention.

I can't comment on most of the issues you raise: my connection to God got lost years ago. But your comment about this being the only "broken" world--"Thulcandra" as C S Lewis called it--bothered me.

Someone else said it. There is evil in the world because we have the freedom to choose evil. If we are the only world in the universe to have that freedom, it could mean one of many things: that we are confined here to hurt each other and no-one else, that we are the waste products of creation and it simply does not matter what we do to each other, or perhaps that we are the only creatures in the universe strong enough to handle that freedom. I don't like any of these possibilities.

I prefer to think that every world in creation is inhabited by beings with their own free will, who can choose good or evil and grow stronger by confronting the possibility of evil within themselves. Yes, this would mean that suffering is universal under heaven. I do not choose to believe that we have a monopoly on it.

We are not Thulcandra. We're just the neighbourhood.

Hi. I'm humbled by what some people have been posting here, to the extent that I wonder if philosphophy sounds trite next to the stories of personal hurt and, sometimes, redemption. I hope you think this is on-topic: I can't get away from the fact that the problem of evil and free will are inseperable.
The argument is always that we need free will to love, that without it we are robots. It seems to me that in heaven, there must therefore be free will, or there can be no love there. But the argument goes that evil is an inescapable consequence of free will on Earth - we can chose to do evil as well as good.
What I don't understand is why there won't therefore be evil in heaven - or to put it another way, is it possible to have free will but remain sinless and free from evil? Surely there won't be sin in heaven! I don't think it's sufficient to say that evil in the world is just caused by free will - which leads us back to the big question.
Sorry, no answers, just more questions...

Love,
Chris.

This is an issue I've been trying to understand since I was young. I've made little progress with it, but some parts have become clearer. There seem to be two "flows" within creation: a flow of love and support and goodness, and a flow of destruction and harm and fear. I don't know how to describe it except as a flow, like rivers that flow through life. We can align more with one or the other as we see fit, with our free will. There seems to be some kind of purpose for "evil",or a place that it holds in life, but I don't understand it. I wonder if somehow we are all missing the explanation, due to our pre-programmed beliefs that we are all taught. I really wonder if we are misinterpreting things, and need to find a fresh way to understand Creation. Keys and clues seem to be scattered throughout creation.

I spent many years being the child you described. I've experienced what would be called "evil" at close range. It has driven me towards the light - and away from churches, because of my abuser - and has chased me into embracing love and kindness faster than anything else could have. Some good came from that hideous experience. Does that justify it? Nope. I actually have no answers, but have been wanting to contribute something to this important discussion.

http://blogs.salon.com/0003947
www.wanderingwillowblog.blogspot.com

God *can* hear the scream of a child. He saved one child from the many killed by Herod.

Somebody wrote on 31/10/2005 (sorry, but the name has slipped my mind)
' Recently a friend wrote me, asking if the pain he was suffering was God’s way of making us remember God … No no no! I said – then God would be not only an autocrat but a tyrant, and would deserve our rejection.'

Ezekiel 20: 25 I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; 26 I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.

God allows child sacrifice so that he can fill people with horror, so they turn to the Lord. As God, desires such as these are moral, because all that God wants is moral.