Fighting Over The New Testament

August 20, 2007 - 12:16pm

I’ve been a part of the Christian Church all of my life. I’ve watched how things work within the faith, and I’ve been particularly fascinated by the ways we Christians use and abuse the New Testament.

The New Testament - the uniquely Christian part of the Bible - is a messy collection of books and letters. No one can be absolutely sure what parts are important and what parts are the cultural containers that hold the important parts. In First Timothy, Paul instructs Timothy to drink wine regularly to help with his stomach problems. It seems unlikely that this should be understood as a universal command for all Christians throughout the centuries. And I’m not aware of any church that treats that passage in such a way.

Not that a glass of wine at night isn’t a splendid idea and something I might like to suggest for some of my more “intense” brothers and sisters.

So from the start, we have a collection of documents that is unclear and can be difficult to interpret and understand. That’s a good thing to know before we go any further.

From what I’ve seen, only very serious Christians take the time to actually read the New Testament for themselves. This collection of sacred writings taxes scholars, so it is certainly a challenge for everyday people. We do the best we can, but no one can understand all of the New Testament. And even those who have read the whole thing will have forgotten most of it by the following Tuesday. The New Testament is too much to hold in your mind.

What most Christians do is read selections of the New Testament, usually in a haphazard manner over a period of years. They pick out the parts that seem important or relevant to them and focus mainly on those selected scriptures. Most people get guidance in this selection process from whatever Christian tradition they follow. Pentecostals from Georgia find some parts of the New Testament particularly compelling. Episcopalians in Boston might focus on other parts.

But we all share this in common: we pick and choose scriptures, cobbling together something we call a theology. The word theology literally means “God words,” and a theology is a series of belief statements about God and Jesus and how Christians ought to live.

Now it is true that a few extraordinary Christians over the years have tried to understand and organize everything in the New Testament. Some have created great, hulking volumes of systematic theology that no normal person could ever read or understand. But trying to create a systematic theology is rather like a physicist trying to come up with a unified theory of everything. It’s a great idea, but so far no one has been able to pull it off in a way that satisfies everyone

If what I’ve written makes you angry, please note that I’m being descriptive. I’m simply describing what I have seen. If you know of a monk-like person who sat on a pillar for 40 years, can quote the entire New Testament from memory, and has now perfectly integrated all of it into his theology and life, then your exception is duly noted. Good for you, and good for your monk friend.

So our little slanted, incomplete, biased, and selective theologies are the best we can do. Given how our theologies are formed, it’s a constant wonder to me that people are surprised and even angered when they meet someone whose ideas about God differ from their own. I’d be more surprised if I met someone who shared my own beliefs, point by point, all the way to the end. Now that would be strange.

Oh, and there is one other thing. There are parts of the New Testament that are just embarrassing and otherwise inconvenient to our modern lives. We just ignore those parts and go on about the business of creating little theological systems that suit us.

That last paragraph is going to get me at least 20 scorching emails. Tut, tut, please settle down. I’m only telling you what I’ve observed. In my experience, people either ignore or conveniently avoid reading parts of the New Testament that are inconvenient for them.

Again, the exception of your monk friend is duly noted.

Now this is important to remember: all that I’ve described so far is what the best and most serious Christians do. Your average Christian might never read the New Testament at all. He or she likely doesn’t even know the names of the 27 writings that comprise our canon of scripture. These people show up at church now and again. They listen to what the minister behind the pulpit is saying and take that as gospel truth without asking any significant questions. Ironically, these are the people who are often the most dogmatic and outspoken about Christianity. Oftentimes it is these people you see waving Bibles around, shouting and screaming about how every blessed word of the Bible sprang straight from the lips of the Almighty.

Anyone who has actually slugged it out with the New Testament, reading it carefully and trying to piece together the truth about God, Jesus, and how we should live, will be so filled with humility and grace that they will probably never yell at anyone about anything, much less the Bible.

Now I’m fine with this whole process. I mean, it’s not like we have a choice. This is the best we can do. So I’ve made my peace with the reality of the situation. And that’s probably why I’m less dogmatic and picky about the details than some.

But what truly amazes me is what happens when two Christians find themselves in a dispute over some doctrinal issue or passage of scripture. Suddenly they forget how messy the New Testament is, how contradictory and convoluted parts of it can be. They forget that their own theology is a product of very selective reading.

Forgetting these things, they run back to their studies in search of verses of scripture that support their position. They pull out books and commentaries; they scan denominational pamphlets or find help online in locating these verses.

Suddenly, single verses are seen to support whole theologies. Some verse from First John now has the power to shore up an entire worldview. Some obscure phrase from Jude is thought to have the final answer on how men and women should relate to each other. And some phrase that Jesus used in a parable now means that people who disagree with you and your ideas about God will roast slowly over an open fire in the pits of hell throughout all of eternity.

These furious exchanges of quotations are like people lobbing mortar shots at each other from trenches. Those involved only get angrier and more entrenched. I guess eventually they get tired and stop. One or perhaps both camps claim victory. No one generally learns anything constructive from these battles.

How do I know so much about this? Because I used to be right in the middle of those fights. In college and seminary, I stood on street corners, arguing and fighting with fundamentalist street preachers. I remember once dragging the Greek New Testament (I had all of one semester of Greek under my belt) down to the street corner to show a sweating, shouting evangelist an aorist verb.

He stared at the Bible for a moment, then looked back at me. Then he shouted, “Your pride will be your downfall, and you will burn forever in the LAKE OF FIIIIIRE!!!!!

I mean, what can you say to that?  "Nu-uh!"

So now I’m gently sliding into middle age. I’m tired of fighting over the Bible. Honestly, I couldn’t care less about most fine points of theology. I know a little too much about how the New Testament was formed, and I know a little too much about what’s in there and how hard it is to keep it straight.

I have much simpler questions for people now.

“You reading the New Testament? Trying your best to understand it?”

“Yeah.”

“Are you trying to follow Jesus as a disciple, trying to understand what he said and live the way he did, where possible?”

“Yeah, I’m trying.”

“MY BROTHER!”

rlp

 

Submitted by Clare Lane on August 20, 2007 - 12:56pm.

"Oftentimes it is these people you see waving Bibles around, shouting and screaming about how every blessed word of the Bible sprang straight from the lips of the Almighty."

So very true...

You write criticism well, while I'm still learning how to not come off as a complete jerk.

clare

"God? I hope so"

Submitted by Pascale Soleil on August 20, 2007 - 1:22pm.

Water in the desert for me. I'm feeling utterly fed up with theology at the moment. And church structures. And liturgies.

And pretty much everything. But that's another story.

Pascale's Wager

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 20, 2007 - 1:47pm.

brother!

-mattman

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 20, 2007 - 1:47pm.

I simply want to say "amen" to this. Thank you for writing exactly what I needed to read at exactly the right time!!!

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 20, 2007 - 1:51pm.

Well put! Of course, I suspect you're preaching to the choir....

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 20, 2007 - 1:59pm.

An uncle of mine declined to attend this brother-in-law's funeral because he was cremated. It "un-biblical" as it turns out. So "the dead will bury the dead" and "brother will be pitted against brother" but we shall continue to miss the point of it all. Whatever.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 20, 2007 - 2:00pm.

Hey Gordon,
Its Ben. I am writing from up at Howard Payne Univeristy in beautiful (um... sort of) Brownwood Texas.

Im about to get right into the theological trenches you wrote about. In fact I was already in them in High School. I agree with your point, but sometimes when I hear fundamentalist theology I have this nasty habbit of wanting to dismantle it bit by bit. But then I wonder if I did the person any favors by swiping their theological crutch....

I miss you and SA.
Love

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 20, 2007 - 2:07pm.

This. Is. Just. Excellent.

Chuck

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 20, 2007 - 2:12pm.

Well said. Thank you.

Just one question. What about us "Sisters"?

;)

Presbyterian Gal

Submitted by rlp on August 20, 2007 - 2:41pm.

lol,

I gotcha, and I see the smiley face.

Yes, I love the sisters too. But you will understand my dilemma as a writer. "My brother" is a common phrase we hear in the media, mostly in movies and mostly offered by African American men (obviously) to each other. That was the feel I was going for. The imaginary dialog was between me and one other person, so "My brother and sister" or anything like that would have destroyed the sound of it.

I am a man, and that's okay too. So the scenario of me in a conversation with a man is valid, real, and ought to be written about. It obviously does not mean that women aren't all over this issue too.

Submitted by The Token Catholic on August 20, 2007 - 3:55pm.

Preacher, you need to check out some of Lovecraft's stories. They're gothic and a bit weird, but fun for a long plane ride, especially if you're familiar with New England, creepy place that it is. The Dream Quest series is kind of weird, but a good tale.

Remind me to email you a copy of the "Who will Be Eaten First?" spoof on a Chick tract when I get home. It's hysterical.

http://bigumuse.blogspot.com

Submitted by The Token Catholic on August 20, 2007 - 4:08pm.

How the heck did my cthulhu comment wind up here? Gah. See? don't tempt the Elder Ones.

http://bigumuse.blogspot.com

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 20, 2007 - 2:15pm.

I saw some mormon evangelists on the street the other day. I've been waiting for them to make it over to my apartment.

My ultimate goal would be to convert a mormon. I mean, standing there at the door, just completely shatter the little guy's faith.

Cause faith is a cage, one of many that we construct for ourselves. That obscures the cage that nature has born us into.

Trying to live like Jesus, or understand him, at this point, isn't enough. There are greater truths to be divined now.

Cthulu is awakening.

Submitted by rlp on August 20, 2007 - 2:45pm.

I don't really know what you're talking about. It sounds like perhaps you mean that humanity is moving beyond the limits of religious impulses and embracing, what? Brave, cold atheism? Or some sort of neo-paganism?

Please don't hear any scorn or challenge behind this. I mean this comment just as I have written it. I don't understand, but would like to. Do you have a blog where you expound your ideas more? If you do, leave us the address. I'd like to read more of your thoughts. I have no idea who or what Cthulu is, for example.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 20, 2007 - 3:42pm.

Cthuhlu is one of the Great Old Gods in the horror writings of H.P. Lovecraft. Fictional, I should add. :) I wouldn't worry too much about him coming.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 20, 2007 - 8:54pm.

I remembered Lovecraft. Read him back when Plato was Dean at my college. Forgot about Cthuhlu. Just out of morbid curiosity went to YouTube. Found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DsgZ4JXXB8

It's 5:40. Pretty funny.

Presbyterian Gal

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 21, 2007 - 4:37pm.

I guess what I meant was that Jesus teaching had a time and a place, and we, as a society are too late, the relevance has passed. The time when being peaceful and loving would have been enough to be moral is gone.

The Cthulu comment was meant to evoke ominousness. Of course the old god's aren't awakening, but we are undergoing an apocalypse, and a new age is around the corner.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 20, 2007 - 3:45pm.

Cthulu just means the Big Bad, the ultimate evildoer. Other than that, I have no idea what he's talking about, either.

Chuck

Submitted by Simian Farmer on August 20, 2007 - 3:58pm.

I love everything I read here, every time I come here. The confusion I have regarding the myriad theologies we create had translated into a condescending disrespect for organised religion in general, and, consequently, many of the individuals who subscribed to them.

Now, certainly in no small part because of what I read here, I have come to have a greater appreciation for the complexity of the interaction between man and his religious constructs, and to denigrate something simply because I don't hold truck with it seems exceedingly childish to me.

Thanks so much, rlp, for how simply and bravely you express yourself here.

Simon

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 20, 2007 - 4:30pm.

Brother,

Well said. I like your comment about the street preacher. Would your "Nu-uh" defense be similar to the "liar, liar pants of fire" that was stated in a Few Good Men and on playgrounds around the world.

Be blessed,

Alan

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 20, 2007 - 4:35pm.

Thank you :) Living in Salt Lake City, Utah, means I get to hear plenty of the trench warfare. It's so awesome to hear somebody like you.

Submitted by Z. D. Smith on August 20, 2007 - 5:47pm.

Zesty and insightful as always, padre, but I do have to take issue with the 'God's Words' bit. 'Theology', of course, comes from 'God' and '-ology', which literally means 'study of'—it comes from the Greek for 'words', but only filtered through thousands of years of natural linguistic shifting. So it *literally* means 'study of god', and it *etymologically* means 'God-speech'—but only in the sense that it would be only *etymologically* correct to call all mute people 'infants', because 'infant' comes from the Latin for 'unspeaking'.

But, anyway, a mere trifle. The body of the piece was above such quibbling, and indeed applicable to much more than the movements of large bodies of Christians.

Z. D. Smith

PS. I'm still waiting for a counter-volley to my latest letter! You know, the one about Satanism, wolves, et cetera.

Submitted by rlp on August 20, 2007 - 7:40pm.

Point taken. I mean, yeah the original form was logos, but indeed we use theology to describe the study of God.

I think, though, that my use of it works too. Literally God Words, used now to describe the study of God, which produces....wait for it....

God words

;-)

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 20, 2007 - 6:49pm.

here's something that makes sense to me, it's pretty simple, but what can I say, I'm pretty simple: Let's say I've figured out THE answer to the every theological question, I mean I KNOW the answer to every question, there's no debate. I still think my blueprint, my commission, so to speak, as to how I should live and spend my time would be to be loving, to feed sheep and heal as much as I am able. So why should I spend time arguing theology. Get busy with the loving already...

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 20, 2007 - 8:32pm.

Sincerely wondering....
So how do you decide what you can trust in the New Testament? Why should I try to 'follow Jesus as a disciple?' Where did you get that, the New Testament? I do really want to know,really.

Submitted by revscott on August 20, 2007 - 9:25pm.

RLP will probably provide a better answer than I can give, but I'll give you my own response to your wonderful question. Trust all of it, but don't think that the entire NT will have practical impact at every given point of your life.

The letter to the Hebrews says, "Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

The Word addresses us in different ways in different times: sometimes it's the soft caress of a loving parent, sometimes it's the jabbing forefinger of an indignant and jilted lover.

For me, my love of scripture started with Romans 8.31-39, which revealed to me God's surpassing love in a time when I didn't feel much love from others in my life. Since those days, other passages have come to mean as much to me if not more - but I trust them all, even when I don't understand what they mean.

One other thing - to really learn to trust and follow as a disciple, you'll need a loving, supportive community who is following with you. Jesus never intended us to do it on our own. I hope you find a good place where that can happen. God bless.

Submitted by rlp on August 20, 2007 - 10:23pm.

For 2000 years Christians have used these documents and practiced spiritual disciplines found in them that have brought us closer to God. Trusting the journey of understanding the New Testament is an act of faith. Every spiritual tradition on earth has the same sort of story.

Although interpretations of the scriptures vary from person to person and age to age, we do work from the same documents. So we do stay grounded.

Having been a part of this my whole life, I can testify that people are redeemed and become better, gentler, kinder people.

But the bottom line is: This is a journey of faith.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 20, 2007 - 10:05pm.

Άδελφός! :-)

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 21, 2007 - 1:42am.

Hey,

excellent post, you sum it all up well, and its a point of view I really aspire too; but at the moment there are blocks in my head that mean I can't get there yet. I'm appealing to you for help on that one.

I have no trouble with this on the more abstract theological issues (e.g. are the trinity three separate entities or is the third entity the one-ness of the other two or...) but on the day-to-day practicality level, what do I say to a brother of mine who tells another brother of mine he(/she :) )'s going to hell? I can love him and call him brother, but as the above says quoting Micah, I feel called to 'act justly' in defense of my other brother, and so I slide into argument...

help!

Submitted by rlp on August 21, 2007 - 12:02pm.

You can't be human and be in relationships and not have conflict. The only thing you can do is deal with the conflict well. And you can only do that easily if both parties agree to the ground rules.

Listen. State your opinions and view. Listen some more. Respect the other person. Let go of any need you have to change them with arguments or pressure. You know, have your say and let it go. Once everyone is entrenched and defensive, your conflict is generating more heat than light.

A gentle, listening attitude will often lead to people coming to you and ASKING you to tell them the things that you wanted to say in your argument. ;-)

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 21, 2007 - 5:06pm.

"You can't be human and be in relationships and not have conflict."

That is one of the most true things I've ever read.

Btw, another great post!

-g

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 22, 2007 - 6:28am.

Had a revelation the other day. Not a new one but I needed reminding. Here 'tis.

That we should listen to, tolerate, respect each others beliefs, is in itself a belief. A belief that not everyone shares.

This is scary. I want it to be true that we can peacefully co-exist if we agree to listen to each other, speak our own views, and accept that we might disagree on some things. But what if this is one of the things we disagree on?

It seems to me that religious conflict often comes down to the clash between a worldview that accepts plurality and a worldview that demands uniformity. So if we figure that the solution is listening to each other, and expressing opinions without trying to convert each other, haven't we already taken sides?

Not trying to be nit-picky - but you've articulated nicely one of the assumptions that often goes unspoken in conversation between brothers (and brother-ettes ;-) ) in different bits of the church, and it might be one of the things we need to have a conversation about.

But if we can't assume this, where do we start?

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 21, 2007 - 5:23am.

Hey, thanks, Preach. ... I suppose it's easy to fight over the written word more than it is the person of Jesus. Where I live, though, there's this subtle but strong worship of the Bible itself. ("The Bible says ...."). And I want to counter, "The Bible says a lot of things." Or as my Old Testament professor used to tell us: The Bible (itself) doesn't SAY anything. ... God has spoken through some of his people and the Bible is our deposit of God's revelation. As someone else posted, the scriptures are used as weapons or hand grenades, only to divide when it should be the opposite.
So, thanks for your good words.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 21, 2007 - 2:26pm.

I have to agree with this observation. Bible-worship seems to be a common, albeit unconscious, theme in the Christian circles around me. Just take the phrase "Word of God" as an example. What is the Word? According to the amazing statements of John, Jesus/Yeshua is the Word, and the Word is eternal, is God, and was the Creating force in the beginning. An issue I see more of lately is the way some ascribe that status to a set of written documents.

The Bible is not God, does not Create, is not eternal, and hasn't always existed. The truths within it perhaps could be argued as eternal since they reveal what we know of the eternal God... but the words are not God. They are not "The Word" they are the words.

I think many of the conflicts arise because we are afraid about not knowing, not understanding, and not following something many claim to be the salvation of one's life, the Truth of all reality. Instead of thinking about it as a book, people put it next to God Himself. Is this right? It kind of creeps me out, to be honest. I hope I'm just mistaken...

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 22, 2007 - 12:07am.

This aspect, "Bible Worship" has always creeped me out too. I think it just comes from religous fervor and a tradition of looking at the Bible as the "living" word of God. Some of us in Sunday school never could commit to the Bible like that. As a result, we never said a word and it made us doubt our faith. My conclusion as a SUnday school dropout... God is bigger than this book, but this book can transform lives.

Submitted by Larry Vaughan on August 21, 2007 - 7:35am.

Hey Gordon,
Loved this post. I had a short season in my life when I carried a Bible with a baseball bat attached to it. Turns out a cup of water is a better side dish. Thanks for being my brother.

Submitted by MMM on August 21, 2007 - 7:36am.

I always wanted to have a brother just like you. :)
You're bookMMMarked.

MMM

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 21, 2007 - 8:20am.

dude, you are my hero. thanks for saying this. It's where my path has been taking me for several years. It's quite the detour from where I started in a small town Southern Baptist Church.

Last Sunday, I showed the Youth Rob Bell's "Bullhorn" video. We had a great discussion. You're comments would have been helpful; maybe I'll use them this week. I ask them what their attraction to the message of Jesus is (wherever they are in their belief of God). All of them said something about "love" and how Jesus just seemed to be this extraordinary man who just really seemed to love everyone. That's all they really need; they could care less what Roman's says....or any of the book. Not a bad way of looking at Christianity I think. Though I still attempt to have discussions about the Bible while they eat donuts and draw pictures.

Thanks again.
kel @ journey

Submitted by Keith on August 21, 2007 - 11:45am.

Non-Lovecraft-readers won't appreciate this quite as much, but:

Tales of Plush Cthulhu

I'm not trying to get through the New Testament right now, but I'm struggling with Hawking again. General relativity is only page 40, and already my eyes are crossing. By the time we get to 11-dimensional M-theory, I'll merely be going through the motions of reading.

Motions being, of course, 3-dimensional shadows of 4-dimensional consequences of curved spacetime.

Luckily, a rainy day off with a cappuccino and a book is still pleasant, regardless of the unknowability of the prime mover.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 21, 2007 - 4:10pm.

They forget that their own theology is a product of very selective reading.

Do you think many people of faith do not get down and dirty with the grueling walk of faith? I mean anybody can read any religion and spout its words.

becky

Submitted by rlp on August 21, 2007 - 5:41pm.

I don't know. In my experience, large numbers of people either want easy answers, are not intellectually prepared or educated to the place where they can handle complex answers, or just want to be a part of a group and that's really all that is driving them.

There are people who care about the reality of their worldview, and some that just...don't. I don't know. It's weird to me.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 22, 2007 - 3:22pm.

I have seen the face of G-d. I know there is lots I don't know. I know there is lots I cannot know. I accept the mystery. I know G-d is love.
I do what I can to share this love. Some times I do it well. Sometimes I miss. The Book helps remind me of what I do know.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 21, 2007 - 4:51pm.

Ah, thanks for reminding me of the existence of the aorist. I was lucky (and privileged) to study a bit of Greek at secondary school, but never the biblical variety.
Marie-Elise

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 21, 2007 - 10:04pm.

By this post, I would guess that if someone brought up the doctrine of the clarity of Scripture, your response would be:

"Nu-uh!"

How about the sufficiency of Scripture? Frankly, I have my doubts about both. If either one, let alone both, were true I don't think we would have the myriad Christian denominations that exist today.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 22, 2007 - 12:10pm.

I'd rather not blame scripture for its lack of clarity or sufficiency. Anything fallen men read and try to apply will lack clarity and sufficiency.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 22, 2007 - 3:04pm.

And also what fallen men write. Because unless one believes that God dictated every word of the Bible, one must acknowledge - even while believing that the Scriptures are inspired by God - that they come from imperfect people of faith very much like us.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 21, 2007 - 11:46pm.

Wonderful, well-said! Thank you!
~kyle

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 22, 2007 - 2:42am.

Yes...
Brother

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 22, 2007 - 7:37am.

Bless you pastor, bless you.
Very well said, and I couldn't agree more.
Nancy in San Antonio

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 22, 2007 - 9:05am.

yes, brother.
wonderfully said. i am so tired of fundamentals who think their theology is the best of all.

pl, singapore.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 22, 2007 - 11:10am.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 22, 2007 - 1:01pm.

Another good post. Theology in the Episcopal Church has become a way to speak beautifully and say absolutely nothing of substance. Even our best bishops speak in long lovely sentences that are oh so carefully designed to say nothing at all and to never, ever take any side on an issue. I would, frankly, like to hear a little street preaching, on both sides of the issues.

DWL

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 22, 2007 - 5:43pm.

You get some very surprising results when you let the what you read in the bible determine your faith culture, rather than let your faith culture determine what you read in the bible. But then which translation?

I got into trouble from the finance team once for preaching that tithing is not a new testament requirement. So much for a gospel that brings freedom!

Peace

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 22, 2007 - 7:55pm.

RLP

I understand your observation and concern but respectfully, I don't agree with your conclusion. I love theology - it's about the study of the God we love. Systematic theology has added much to the depth and richness of my life.

The fact that some (or many) will abuse knowledge is not an indictment of study and knowledge, it's an indictment of their lack of love, grace and wisdom.

Grace to you, brother

ESI

www.everysquareinch.blogspot.com

Submitted by rlp on August 22, 2007 - 8:21pm.

I understand the love of systematic theology, but can it be done? Can the New Testament fit into some Western system? If so, who has pulled it off? Honest questions, not meant to challenge.

I like talking about God and I like allowing the New Testament to guide that conversation. But systematic theology just does nothing for me. I had several courses in seminary. Read and entire systematic theological work. Didn't enjoy it.

Just me I guess.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 23, 2007 - 11:00am.

I don't think its just you. I, like the above commentor, have been an avid reader and student of systematic theology. But I came to a place in my life and journey of faith that it stopped serving me well. I found that my need to understand theology and to always be theologically accurate replaced the simple command of Jesus to "follow me."

So I have given up theology. For how long? I don't know - maybe months, years, or forever. Right now I am just content learning to love God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength and to love my neighbor as myself. I fall short, way short, but I like trying. This is more fulfilling to me than all the theology I have ever learned.

Scott

Submitted by mattman on August 23, 2007 - 8:08am.

I had the benefit of a systematic theology prof. who made its study a stimulating and engaging pursuit, so I do tend to be something of a theology geek. Since most systematic use the language of doctrine it is helpful to remember the quote that doctrine is a wonderful tool and a terrible master. We don't follow or serve doctrine, just like we don't worship the bible. Each helps to shed more light on the path of the one Christians are called to follow, worship and serve.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 23, 2007 - 8:53am.

Wonderful Gordon.

Zanna

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 23, 2007 - 10:45am.

I have had such a relief when reading this post of yours. I have to say I used to read the Bible feverishly and after reading, left my house with a sour, bitter disposition caused by the more institutional way of thinking. I've learned over time though, to go back to the basics and start over with a better viewpoint as a human instead of a document-machine ready to pounce on anyone getting in her way. ;)

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 23, 2007 - 11:47am.

Fabulous. Thanks.

Tim Thompson

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 23, 2007 - 1:10pm.

Can anyone out there recommend a good guide to the Apocryphal books? I saw one by David deSilva, "Introducing the Apocrypha" but I hesitate to buy it if it's too scholarly. Any reviews? I'm teaching a class of senior adults at the retirement community where I work and they want to know about "those books the Catholics have in their Bibles that we don't".

Loved this post, Gordon.

Harper

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 24, 2007 - 4:56am.

Great post RLP

I'd just finished reading another blog detailing the why's and wherefore's behind differences in theology in churches. All in all it was a good (factual) post - but I felt that it missed the real point -that how we live our christian lives is of more importance than most of the nuances of theological debate.
(http://adrianwarnock.com/2007/08/why-baptism-lords-supper-and-church.htm if you want to take a peek)

Your post beautifully illustrates my own views.

Yes, it'd be nice to have perfect knowledge, and as christians I feel that we should strive to better understand the scriptures.
But, how we live, how we love, how we react and intereact with others is of greater importance to God, of greater worship to God and of greater value/service to others.

Forgive my ramblings, but it's an issue that I feel strongly about.

the Fool.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 25, 2007 - 10:25am.

You cannot know how much this post helped me. My church and my own beliefs are being tested right now, and I find myself very much in the minority. Your advice is excellent: "Listen. State your opinions and view. Listen some more. Respect the other person. Let go of any need you have to change them with arguments or pressure. You know, have your say and let it go. Once everyone is entrenched and defensive, your conflict is generating more heat than light." There is a lot of heat and not much light emanating from our congregation right now. I will try harder to project the latter.
It was reported in the paper this morning that letters and writings from Sister Therese indicate that she lived with doubt for over 50 years right up to her death. I was sad for her, but it helps me to know that someone of such stature in Christianity had some of the same thoughts I am having now.
Blessings on you and your work.
Joann

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 25, 2007 - 3:42pm.

Dittos and Amen!!

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 25, 2007 - 8:23pm.

I don't suppose you could convince seminary profs to the value of this post? :-)

(Currently buried in constructive theology texts, that seem utterly unrelated to Scripture)

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 26, 2007 - 8:37pm.

But this is terrible!

I don't know any monks and I basically agree with you. How can I possibly comment? It's terrible, that's all.

One thing I will add, a long-distance relative was visiting and a discussion broke out about politics and it wandered, as most of our table discussions did at that time, into religion. And this relative sniffed a bit and said, "I don't think it's quite couth to argue about religion, sex or politics."

And my father stared at him with quiet surprise. "Why not?" he asked. "Those are almost the only things we can do anything about in the long run."

I like his philosophy, personally, I just tend to not strike up arguments with brick walls. It tires me out and changes the wall not a whit.

Pat Christensen

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 27, 2007 - 1:27am.

This Priest says YES.

http://webandchurch.blogspot.com/2007/08/muslim-priest.html

Crazy isn't it.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 27, 2007 - 1:28am.

Do you think one can be a Christian and a Muslim at the same time?

This Priest says YES.

http://webandchurch.blogspot.com/2007/08/muslim-priest.html

Crazy isn't it.

Submitted by Anonymous User on September 1, 2007 - 8:45pm.

Well, if God exists, we all better hope he has a terrific sense of humor; otherwise we are all in deep doo doo. That's about as much theology as I can muster in sixty years of living. Pax et bonum, as the fellah said. That's about the best we can do.
Uncle Paul

Submitted by Anonymous User on September 16, 2007 - 10:21am.

I think studying systematically the word of God and reading what others with experience and study have written is a worthwhile and fascinating thing to do. To do it all at once like a novel is a little unfair. The thing is we all turn to some kind of system to study the bible. I can see why people who follow Borg, Spong, or emergents do NOT like a systematic study of scripture.

Submitted by Anonymous User on September 17, 2007 - 5:17am.

Systematic study of the Bible, including reading the works of others who have already started down that road, is certainly valuable, but ultimately one will run into complexities that cannot be easily untangled, if at all. It's important to remember that our salvation, and the salvation of those to whom we are to bring the Gospel, is not through systematic theology, or even through the Bible, but through the living work of Jesus the Christ.

John 5:39-40: "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." The Scriptures testify about Jesus, but the Scriptures are not Jesus.

Re Borg & Spong: To say that they have not systematically studied the Scriptures is disingenuous at best. They've reached different conclusions, conclusions that you (and I) disagree with, because they're making different assumptions than we do and acting under influences that we reject.

As for the emergents, grouping them as a whole with Borg & Spong is, at best, throwing out the whole barrel instead of the bad apples.

Submitted by Anonymous User on September 17, 2007 - 6:35pm.

The systematic theologies I am familiar with tend to be irenic and deal with issues that are ambiguous with a fair and even hand. They would say that salvation is based on a living relationship with Christ. Systematic theologies give us an understanding of differing viewpoints.

I did not write that Borg and Spong had not studied the scripture sysematically. I am sure they have. They are both intelligent and educated men. Their conclusions however deny our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. They deny the authority of scripture. We are to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the Saints. This faith is recorded in the scriptures. In response to your scripture I would respond with the Bereans and Psalm 119.

The Emergent Movement is very nebulous. I would suggest D.A. Carson's "Becoming Conversant with the Emergent Church." To say it is dangerous is an understatement.

Submitted by Anonymous User on September 18, 2007 - 2:09pm.

Ahh...refreshing humility. Someone admitting that maybe we can't figure it all out. Many a preacher (even this one occasionally) would do well to remember this.

Submitted by Anonymous User on September 19, 2007 - 7:40am.

Something bothers me here. We all instinctively know that God is infinite and his ways are above our ways. But God did gift us with minds and the scriptures and reaches out to us that we may know him. John wrote this about why he wrote the gospel, John 20:31 (NLT) "But these are written so that you may continue to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing in him you will have life by the power of his name." Systematic Theology has opened up for me ways of thinking about God and the scriptures better. Being people, we sometimes debate issues and get carried away, but that isn't necessarily bad.

I don't think our humbleness should be at the expense of others. We should not make caricatures of bothers and sisters and then ridicule them. That isn't humbleness. I wonder if this isn't really an ongoing polemic of liberal vs. conservative. If the reasoning is this,

(1) no one can know everything
(2) the study of scriptures are not needed
(3) it doesn't matter what you believe

then I cannot disagree more.

Jude, our Lord's brother, had this to say about some who wormed their way into the church, Jude 1:12 (NLT) When these people eat with you in your fellowship meals commemorating the Lord’s love, they are like dangerous reefs that can shipwreck you. They are like shameless shepherds who care only for themselves. They are like clouds blowing over the land without giving any rain. They are like trees in autumn that are doubly dead, for they bear no fruit and have been pulled up by the roots."

Submitted by Anonymous User on September 27, 2007 - 5:29pm.

I think of theology as another form of worship, like singing, or helping someone, or giving, or praying, ect. But we take it a bit too seriously. For two years I've been having a conversation with 5 brothers on the Internet with our central concern being what we mean by salvation. We batted around what we knew about everything from universalism to predestination vs. free will.

One of the things I have been processing recently was inspired by Ken Wilber. I am thinking of God these days as non-dual while the church folk tend to cut him up into dualistic pieces. That's modern-absolutist thinking: reducing everything down to the "sure thing." The result is hyper-protestantism: our goal is to hack one another to pieces. Our trajectory is to split the church into nano-shards.

But it is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" and "Christ is not divided." Whether we like it or not, we are part of the whole organism. I think the challenge to the church right now is to learn peacemaking (and you will be called the children of God). I find it easy to make peace with those outside the believing community. It is those within the church that are often the most beligerent and hard-headed folks around. We tend to worship being "right."

M. Scott Peck sought to find a "psychology of evil" and postulated that human evil was based in the inability for self-examination. The church seems very challenged in this aspect. I hope that doesn't make us evil. But I think we need to start doing it very seriously. We need to stop hammering our critics and start listening to them. God is trying to tell us something through them.

Submitted by Anonymous User on October 25, 2007 - 12:37pm.

praise the lord brothers and sisters in CHRIST THE ALMIGHTY

Submitted by Anonymous User on October 27, 2007 - 6:16am.

The lord is coming, so help who you can by saving them, who you can't save,pray for them and hope they come to their senses. god bless