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Gordon,
I think I agree 100% that Christianity is about a way of living as a disciple, rather than believing in certain doctorines. The one monkey wrench in my theology on that matter is that by seeing Christianity as a way of living sounds an awful lot like working your way to salvation/life with God, rather than having it given to us by Grace... I understand also though that requiering certain beliefs is also not particularly gracious... So I dont know what to think.

Help me out here, I glad you wrote this, because its exactly what Ive been thinking about latley.

"In a sense, my giving myself to them is a kind of willing submission. Jesus died on the cross for me. I don't really know how that works, but somehow evil is so terrible and hard to set right that it took such a thing to do the trick and drive the point home."

Ah but see evil is really only the opposition of will. I mean even if there is a god up there, evil really only constitutes the opposite of his will. Is that right, does god get to be a tyrant who can impose his will on others, just because he has the power?

See, right and wrong are arbitrarily defined. It's mostly instinct and emotional reaction that defines ones individual morals, one sense of good and evil. The universe has no moral stance, it is objective (except in a physical sense, literally, the laws of physics.

So what you are really talking about, when you say, Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins with his precious blood, is that a solitary man (or a mythological man) was willing to let himself be murdered brutally in defiance of the animal instincts that made his murderers murder him. That's why Christianity is compelling. Judaism is compelling because its essential lesson is that the bad guys will get their just deserts. Mormonism is compelling because it immortalizes the family, the tribe, gratifying one of our most basic animal instincts.

You see it's all a facade, in the end it's a grand self delusion, someone made up to keep us from killing ourselves over the horror of reality.

Gordon,

Thank you for the post. In trying times, it is good to know that other people believe that it is more about the message than the method.

Tom

exACTly. Thank you. I often tell people the dogma is neither here nor there really - the point is to be living a loving life, and whatever tools (religious doctrine among them) help you accomplish that, great. I abide by the basic tenets that living generously and lovingly with everyone is, in the end, better for all, and I abide by the Lutheran doctrines because they make the most sense to me/help keep me mindful most effectively (having been raised with them). Blind or even absolute belief in the doctrines is unnecessary, I think.

This is of topic so sorry for that, I was wondering who does all the art work on your blog, and do you ask them to have one for each post?

Paul
www.paulmorgun.blogspot.com

Hi Gordon:

I like coming here and reading what you write. You say outloud things that I feel but cannot say. There is too much fear associated with many of the things I feel and the questions I have. My evangelical world will not tolerate my questions. And considering that I'm a "professional" in that world, much is at stake. This is why I only come here anonymously.

Maybe someday I will have the courage to be honest about my questions, but not now.

I do have a question for you. In your letter to "James," you said: "For me the bottom line is this: I give myself to a set of central doctrines as a member of the Christian community." If you don't mind me asking, what are those doctrines? Is it the same set for everyone?

I'm not asking to pigeon hole you or anything. I'm just curious as I work through many of these issues myself.

LOVE

THAT

BOOK

I'm pretty new as a Christian; it was right up my alley. C.S. Lewis is mah DAWG yo!

Thanks for making us heathen agnostic seekers welcome, rlp. In return, I try to stay honest.

Your friend in Berkeley.

Peace.

H'mmmmm

I'm curious about atonement theology - I know it's what I was taught from my Sunday school days, but did Jesus really die for our sins or did he go to the cross because he had no choice given his message and his absolute devotion to it? In other words - what is the source of atonement theology? I don't understand why God - whatever that is - needs a sacrifice to absolve me of my sin. The question of God that I'm living in isn't answered by a requirement for a human construct such as a quid pro quo. My dogma is only that I love God and neighbor - all the rest is derivative or question; mostly question.

On another note: Today I finished your book - or rather I completed my first read of the book. Not only was it worth the price of admission, but I discovered a great story for yesterday's sermon. The story of the man who beat up people with a couple of bible verses being taken to the church cellar to witness the bible burning seemed to fit well with the parable of the Pharisee and tax collector in Luke. You were well attributed and I thank you (although I'm not sure more than a few people listening had any idea what a blog actually is). Whatever they know, they know about a preacher named Gordon in San Antonio.

Shalom,
Wondering Pastor

Good stuff, Preacher. Thanks.

Generally speaking, believing something just because you want it to be true is a terrible idea. I can't see why religious belief would be an exception from this rule.

However, believing in something one admits is irrational is an infinitely more respectable position than claiming to be rational when one is clearly not.

I'm a first time poster but a long time reader. I love your writing and wish you all the best.

-Tobias

Thank you for posting this. It's nice to know that a struggling agnostic like me would be welcome in your church. Among other things substitutionary atonement is a big headache for me.

Hannah

Christianity

One of my favorite movies is Braveheart. For anyone who has seen this, the Christian Church seems the evil one. Making people obey man-made doctorines is an atrocity, especially under the banner of Christ's name.

My Mom died on Friday, April 13; just days after Easter. She was in a semiconcious state that week. Not really awake enough to talk to us, but awake enough to talk about what she was spiritually experiencing.

Easter Sunday morning we were standing beside her bed because she was restless. She calmed down listening to the Sunrise Papal Mass , even though she wasn't Catholic. At one point, she jumped and said "Oh Glory!" Then, "I saw him." I asked "who did you see?" She said, "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus." Then I asked "was He pretty?" and she replies "Uh-Huh (yes)." That was the last thing I heard my mother say.

I was raised under Southern Baptist Doctorine, and in my opinion, the Southern Baptist Convention is almost a political party like the Democrats and Republicans. I've struggled with Faith, and wondered if the Bible was a concoction of tales passed down. I've wondered if their really could BE a God. And, after Easter Sunday morning, I have NO DOUBT that Jesus is real and faith in Christ is the only way to eternal life. I was one eyelid from Heaven.

As for substituionary atonement, Hannah, look at a mother lion staving off prey (evil) in defense of her cubs. She will give her life (Jesus) to save her children (man-kind). Jesus did that for you.

Thanks for letting me share!

Cenotez@yahoo.com

Cenotez,

I don't want to upset you at all, BUT if God is love as the Bible says then why does he need a bloody sacrifice? Why can't he just forgive us when we've done anything wrong? Demanding some sort of violent solution is just cruel and in my opinion unworthy of any worship.

Hannah

Hannah,
Your question doesn't really engage Cenotez' metaphor. Love sacrifices itself in order to conquer/defeat evil. Evil, IMO, is the result of the freedom love necessitates. In order to love we must be free to choose other than love because love cannot be compeled. Evil is the collective product of freedom's choice of self over love. In the Lion metaphor, love chooses to sacrifice itself rather than sacrifice the object of love to freedom's destruction.

Gordon,can you believe what this blog has become? It boggles my mind, I visit here everyday to see if you have written something new, and I know many others do the same.
You have become a sort of pastor to an entire community online. And it all started with you deciding to write a little blog...
I know you're not into evangelical language, God knows Im not either, but I gotta say that God has used you through this little blog in an amazing way.

-Joab
(I just wanted a cool alias, and I've always thought Joab was a badass)

I think of God as a personification of a whole bunch of things:

- our sense of morality
- our sense of wonder, awe, etc (not knowing everything), including the unknowns in science. Pulling in a little bit of pantheism (resulting in panentheism) solves the "god of the gaps" problem: doesn't matter that we explained it, it's still "God".
- a personification of the abstract target of our general thankfulness

Something along those lines. Works for me...

I might also suggest taking a look at Brian McLaren's books (including "Finding Faith", can possibly be described as a post-modernistic apologetics book?), as well as Marcus Borg's - which provided me with incredible respect for Jesus, without having to resort to supernatural beliefs.

To me, Jesus is alive as an ideal, as a principle. To me, even the resurrection, is more a case of the people realising "he is still with them", three days later... noticing him in their fellow followers.

The point being: I don't even consider belief in the resurrection as that vital. The meaning attached to the resurrection, was also mostly important to those with a "sacrificial cult" perspective on life: as the ultimate sacrifice, they no longer need to sacrifice animals and the like. I feel if you didn't start out with this sacrificial idea in the first place, it's not that important. He was then crucified for standing up against abusive authority, etc. And there is still abusive authority in this world, Jesus is still needed. (Always will be. Human's fallible nature. I prefer fallible to "sinful", the liberal I am.)

Oh yea, and "The Last Week", co-authored by Borg and Crossan, gives amazing insight into the last week of Jesus' life. (Which is huge. And much more impressive than a theology focusing only on the violence and gore of the last 24 hours of his life, ala Mel Gibson's "The Passion of The Christ".)

I'm a little bit late in this conversation, so maybe no-one reads this. Oh well.

No one told me personally to "Go away until you can believe it," but I did anyway.

I stopped identifying as Christian not long ago because it just doesn't seem to apply to me based on what I think. Since then, there have been Christians and non-Christians alike who've told me, "Oh, you can still be a Christian" in one way or another, based on my morals or on something Jesus said. I appreciate their effort, but I decline.

Being steeped in the current Anglican-Episcopal hooplah, I'm weary of the misunderstandings and nastiness that result from people using the same words to mean completely different things, never realizing or acknowledging that they're talking past one another. I don't want to fuel the fire. I will think what I think and do what I do, and people can call me what they think I am--but I don't want to add to the mayhem.

Thanks for keeping the doors open, RLP--even if I prefer to hang out across the street.

RLP's book & Atonement Issues

I won't even dive into my shifting and evolving ideas and suspicions about "the existence of God" at this point, but I did want to share a few thoughts that were sparked by Gordon's post and the subsequent responses.

1) THE RLP BOOK
Gordon, I recently received my copy of your book. Thank you for the personal touch (something so rare in our world)- it was cool to find in its pages a flower from your garden and a jolly rancher. I've been skipping around reading different parts of your book and it has already "spoken to me" on many levels, addressing many of the theological, social and family issues I am trying to work through. I think your work is brilliant because it is honest and human. It feels like a conversation. Thank you for your blog, your writing and your willingness to share your thoughts, experiences and concerns with all of us.

2) MY ISSUES WITH THE ATONEMENT:
This has become a key issue for me as an artist/writer studying for my Master's in Theology. It's major because so much Christian theology seems to hinge on it. But honestly, I find the whole notion and necessity of an atonement "hard to believe" while also realizing that many consider it to be "good news"- serving as a very meaningful and powerful idea for many Christians today and in centuries past.

My skepticism towards this doctrine has really made me sensitive to how much it is incorporated into the liturgies of the church and chapel I regularly attend. The hymns are full of references to this bloody transaction and it is deeply ingrained into the language of the communion ceremony.

I could be missing something, but in my readings of the synoptic Gospels, I find very little "from Jesus' mouth" that even hints towards the idea of atonement. Granted, I have found one verse in Mark quoting Jesus as saying that "the Son of Man" would serve and "give his life as a ransom for many" and a verse in Matthew 26:28 where Jesus, sitting at a private Passover dinner with his disciples, talks about his own blood being "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Note: this is the only "last supper" account in the Gospels that even alludes to the idea of sins being forgiven)

Jesus taught a great many things that addressed a wide variety of spiritual, ethical, moral and social concerns, but I have been hard pressed to find him promoting an atonement doctrine in the parables he shared with listening crowds and in the prayer he taught his students/disciples. In teaching "the Lord's prayer," Jesus advised his disciples to pray to God and ask for forgiveness daily. The way I see it, this doesn't seem to indicate any need for anyone to die in order for "God" to forgive them. God, as Jesus describes in the Lord's prayer, seems more approachable than the distant, holy and strict deity may of us have been taught to believe in. Plus, the idea of a God that would even require such a sacrifice strikes me as an ancient tribal (dare I say "superstitious") ritual of animal sacrifice being imposed on an image of a God that also doesn't really square well with the image of God promoted by Jesus' story of the Prodigal Son.

For "atonement" to be so central to traditional Christian dogma, you would think that Jesus would talk about it more often than he does. I suspect that many churches today base a majority of their atonement ideas on Paul's letters, other writings of the New Testament, and classic Christian theology as taught by Augustine of Hippo, Anselm of Canterbury and others.

My gut feeling is that much of atonement theology emerged as an elaborate way to make sense of a tragic death. It appears that the wise and compassionate, Palestinian storyteller/prophet named Jesus of Nazareth- a human being believed by many to be a healer and viewed by his early followers as "the anointed one" (Messiah) or "the Son of God" (perhaps a title as opposed to a biological fact)- was tortured and executed by the religious and political authorities of his day because he was perceived as a threat to their established orders.

That's my take on it (for what it's worth). I'm a student and I know I have much more to learn, but this makes sense to me.

WHERE THIS LEAVES ME?
I am torn between my integrity and my commitment to my church. What do you do when you no longer convinced of a majority of your community's core beliefs? I try to hang in there for the people's sake, and for the sake of practicing love in a community and accountable to others- but lately I've been feeling like I'm at a standstill. I don't want to disturb ideas about God that others find meaningful but I also don't want to be restrained from seeking answers to my questions and exploring other perspectives about "truth." I also can't imagine evangelizing and going forth preaching certain doctrines as necessary if I am not convinced of them myself. How does a skeptical seeker evangelize? Maybe they don't have to (as Gordon seems to suggest). How does a skeptical seeker function in an church where evangelism is central? Hmmmm.

~ Geno

I was a theology major and philosophy major - a long time ago. It has been awhile since I focussed more on the theoretical rather than the practical. Both are are important it is just that my focus has been how is belief lived.

My two cents I used to believe in atonement theology but not so much anymore. I have trouble with a God of love who has to make such a violent sacrifice when there were other options open to God. However, maybe there were not other options open to those humans at that time. I do believe that God offers us salvation in many forms, hence the many faiths of the world, and all are valid. But for me the crucifixion is important, centrally so to me, because God led by example and showed me in a way that I cannot deny that new life comes out of pain and suffering. I do not believe that pain and suffering are required for new life but rather that pain and suffering are not the end. At the darkest moments of my life this vision brought me hope. Not light unfortunately I still had to travel through my darkness but it was framed in hope and I could not have held on otherwise.

Perhaps the crucifixion is not about atonement but rather about an immense example of obedience, mind blowing obedience. And so I close with RLP's words:

And I would rather be in community with an agnostic person who, in her uncertainty, was willing to walk the Christian path with me, than with some person who accepts doctrines without question and never bothers to think about how she lives her life.

Blessings be,
Jennifer

You exactly captured why I am no longer going to church. I'm in my 60s and don't remember all this "theological correctness" until fairly recently. Another trend I don't care for is the superstition and weird stuff that has gotten mixed up with Christianity. The church I most recently attended was a wonderful, uplifting place, but then the minister left and was replaced but someone who seemed to belong to the John Calvin fan club, and the whole atmosphere changed. I miss church but I don't miss the baggage and I certainly don't miss going home more depressed than I was when I walked in!

Thanks for this, and the post above about conversations under the stars. I have been lucky to be attending a church that doesn't demand that everyone believe the same thing, but for some reason I still feel a little odd whenever it comes out that I don't believe in a lot of Christian mythology (for example, the virgin birth, and I'm not sure I believe in the resurrection). I don't think they really know how few things I believe, and it makes me a little uncomfortable whenever I'm asked to be involved in things. I should really sit down with someone in the church and talk about this....

I've thought about leaving the church, even though I'm welcome, but the thing is that I REALLY like church. I love helping with the liturgy (we write our own liturgy as a community for each service based on the scripture passages), I love worship, I love all the symbolism and thinking about all of it. I just don't believe most of it literally happened. Or sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't. I like talking to God, even though I don't know if I believe that God exists.

So anyways what you wrote really resonated with me. Thanks again.