The Marketing Of Sacred Things

August 27, 2005 - 11:51am

Church marketing fascinates me, both the marketing churches do to sell themselves to a target demographic and the marketing that businesses do to sell themselves to churches.

Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but I believe a significant amount of the theology spoken and practiced by churches in the United States is not determined by a search for truth or an honest journey of devotion. A lot of our theology is driven by marketing, though no one wants admit that. If you want to attract a certain group of people, you design your theology to fit their cultural niche. TV preachers know exactly what kind of person will donate to their causes. Most of the insanely outrageous right-wing statements you hear from people like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell do not hurt them. Their “clients” eat that stuff up.

By and large I have no connections to the mainstream, corporate church experience. One of the benefits of being a pastor with a “real job,” as they say, is that my church isn’t driven by an intense need for constant growth just to keep up with the ever-growing staff that is needed to keep up with the constant growth. See how that runs in circles? Sound familiar? It should. That kind of circular logic drives much of our marketplace today.

"I need new hardware to keep up with my new software that is designed to take full advantage of my new hardware."

At Covenant, we are free to be who we want to be, even if there are only a handful of people in our area who want to join us. And to tell you the truth, a handful of people has always been descriptive of us. It seems like there is always a handful of weary pilgrims who want to step out of the ecclesiastical rat race. Somehow they find their way to us. A lot of people attend for a time and then move on. That’s okay. There’s a zillion generic, mega-churches around, but there is only one Covenant Baptist.

Now at the same time that churches are trying so hard to be “relevant” (whatever the hell that means) to our culture, businesses are trying to be relevant to churches. Church is big business. REALLY big business. There's a lot of money to be made in the god game.

Every week we receive a variety of phone calls from church telemarketers. The salespersons use sacred language and try to sound like they just stepped out of a Sunday School class, all in hopes of selling something to us.

Recently I got a phone call from a church telemarketer that was so outrageous I sat down immediately afterward and wrote it down so that I wouldn’t forget it. (The names have been changed)

Hello pastor, this is Jerry Don Carlton with Grace Outreach Ministries. We provide addresses and mailing materials for your outreach ministry. We can provide you with the addresses of all the new families who have moved into your area. We have a couple of programs, quarterly and monthly. Which would you prefer?

"Which would you prefer!" Like I’m going to fall for a cheap, Jedi Mind trick like that.

I’ll tell you what, you send me your stuff, and I’ll look at it.

Well, we have a special promotion going, but it’s only available if I sign you up on the phone. This is a real dynamite package. I mean, you’ll see immediate growth. You know, new families are often looking for a church. One of the best ways to reach those new families is to mail them a "welcome to the neighborhood" package.

Yeah, I've heard that. Send me your stuff, and I’ll bring it to our leadership meeting.

What, you aren’t allowed to make decisions by yourself?

I was stunned by how crass this guy was. Did he really think that I was going to be shamed into buying his stuff just because some guy on the phone wasn't impressed with the amount of power I have? At this point I decided to keep the guy on the line so I could see what else he might say.

Listen, JERRY DON, it’s not a question of what is or isn’t allowed. It’s a question of how we DO things. We’re a church, a body of believers. We have our own way of making decisions. Send me your stuff, and we’ll take a look at it.

You know, most of the pastors I deal with have some kind of discretionary funds or something. I mean, they can make some decisions without running to the deacons or whatever.

This guy was unbelievable.

Jerry Don, LISTEN TO ME. Send me your stuff and perhaps we’ll take a look at it.

Are you aware that if you use our product, you’ll get more families in your church? More families mean more money. This program will pay for itself in one quarter. A lot of pastors I deal with just order it and give it a try. Let me tell you, when they bring these results to the deacons, or board, or…well, everyone’s happy.

Nice move. Now it’s me and Jerry Don standing together against the miserly budget committee. Hopefully, with Jerry Don’s generous help and deep, spiritual vision, I can encourage these spendthrifts to open up and let the good Lord enlarge our fields or ministries, or whatever you call it.

It was fun playing along, but I grew tired of Jerry Don and had to hang up the phone.



You know, marketing and selling and making money and being successful and all of that has so polluted every aspect of our society that it’s become difficult to find anything simple and authentic anymore. When I was young, I thought of the church as something pure and uncomplicated. I thought that the sacred journey of devotion and spirituality I would find in church would stand apart from my culture and bear witness to what was pure and good and decent.

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child," said the apostle Paul. Yeah, me too.

And yet, even now I still have hopes and dreams. I continue to go to church every Sunday with some hope in my heart. I delight in our simple church with its quirky problems and silly ways. At our church you might be asked to pray on Sunday or fill in for someone who is out of town. The music and most of the service and everything all the way down to cleaning the toilets is done by volunteers from the congregation.

We don't always get things done quickly, but we eventually get around to the things that really need getting around to, if you know what I mean.

It’s messy, but since when is messy such a bad thing? I think messy, silly church is a lovely and precious thing in this world.

Peace,

rlp

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 27, 2005 - 12:17pm.

Grr having problems logging in. Anyway.

Being on the board of mission and outreach, we occasionally get things from the denomination on how to raise money for specific things. Now, these things are worthy--all sorts of things that truly help people. But the tactics they suggest for getting money feel so slimy!! Guilt-tripping seems to be big. I won't do it. I hardly ever use their suggest promotional stuff. I just stand up and say what I'm raising money for and where it would go and what it would do. Amazingly, I still get donations. Fancy that.

Submitted by rlp on August 27, 2005 - 12:28pm.

Hi there. If you're having problems logging in, send me an email and I can help you get it straightened out.

Submitted by donandval on August 27, 2005 - 12:46pm.

donandval
Did you change this post a little at the end? I could have sworn that the first time I read it you told the guy off a little before you hung up (for being unbelievably pushy and rude), but then I read it again and it said you just got tired of him and had to hang up. Just curious. :) Val

Submitted by rlp on August 27, 2005 - 1:19pm.

Val, I hit the publish button too soon. As I was writing it, I realized that I really didn't remember how I got off the phone. Not wanting to have a version that didn't happen, I dropped that part. You just got to see the version before, by mistake.

Submitted by donandval on August 27, 2005 - 1:53pm.

Oh, good... I really thought I might be imagining it! I wonder if "Jerry Don" has ever had a good cussing out by a preacher? Wouldn't that be a treat? Hahahaha... it's probably the only thing that would shut a guy like that up (but only for a second). :) Val

Submitted by Spaceman Spiff on August 27, 2005 - 1:11pm.

Stuff like this makes me sad and threatens to turn me more and more cynical as well. But just as soon as anyone or any organization's focus turns from its original mission to its own continued survival and prosperity, this is what happens. No longer are these organizations about helping individual churches with needs they really have. Now they recognize that to help anyone, they have to stay afloat, and do that they need money, and to get money they have to make sales and to make sales they have to market themselves well... all ultimately to help people, right? Well I don't buy it. I say we have to maintian integrity even at the risk of having to shut down our organization, or find a new job or even close the doors to the church. The Church was never supposed to worry about its own survival, or growth or success. She was supposed to rely on God for that. The Church was simply supposed to be the body of Christ.
David Mahfood
dmahfood@ufl.edu
http://spiffthespaceman.blogspot.com/

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 27, 2005 - 1:33pm.

Hi preach,

Here is an interesting article in the same vein.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0819/p01s03-ussc.html

Keep up the good work, your comments make a lot of sense.

Submitted by donandval on August 27, 2005 - 2:00pm.

Ms. Kristal Dove?!?!? That sounds like a fake name, very fitting for the head of a huge "Christian" marketing agency (towards the end of the article). Blech.

Submitted by Gene on August 27, 2005 - 7:54pm.

Indeed. If that's her original name, I'll eat a communion wafer :-)

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 29, 2005 - 1:48pm.

"We basically make it so ministers can focus on people and not have to worry about this stuff," Ms. Dove says.

yeah, how silly! Ministers should be focused on real things like weblogs.

Submitted by woundedhealer on August 27, 2005 - 2:12pm.

This is why Jesus made a whip and drove the money changers out of the Temple. You are right - this is a billion $ industry and churches are desperate to "succeed". God help us.

Submitted by Tripp Hudgins on August 27, 2005 - 2:40pm.

Thanks for posting this. I cannot tell you how much of the "church leadership" stuff we learn in seminary is about this kind of thing.

"Hey! We don't have 20,000 people visit during the week. Something must be wrong!"

Someone should write a book abut the "supersizing" of the church.

*sigh*

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 28, 2005 - 4:54am.

I agree with this though I wish I didn't. I just finished a church growth course in seminary. The thing is that we first had to write a paper on our dream church and I found out that big isn't better, but a community that cares and supports each other, and takes that love out into the community is what I want. Big or small.

Submitted by paulythebull on August 28, 2005 - 2:59pm.

I dream of 100 home churches consisting of 5-6 families each in our community, each family tithing $100-200 each month. And those funds, rather than paying for a building, professional ministers, staff, etc., going to missions, benevolence, and back to the community. Economically, the impact on the local community could be staggering. On that scale, which I believe is attainable in our city of 70,000, that would mean an income of more than $50,000 a month...with no building or staff to pay. Can you imagine what a difference that could make? How many churches of 500 are putting $600,000 annually into their community and missions?
Pauly the Bull
Beer, Barbecue, and Bible Study

Submitted by soccr3jc on August 28, 2005 - 12:35pm.

Check out the McDonaldization of the Church by a theologian at U. of Aberdeen, in Scotland.

Submitted by dancewithgod on August 27, 2005 - 3:09pm.

" 'Which would you prefer!' Like I’m going to fall for a cheap, Jedi Mind trick like that."  I'm going to use that line with the next christian marketer-"pimp," that calls.  most of the time i get friendly sales people on the phone line, but every once in awhile a christian "pimp" (aka Jerry Don) comes along.  funny and sad.  my family and I enjoyed our visit to covenant, we experienced the simple grace of Christ in covenant's fellowship and worship.
dancewithgod.blogspot.com

Submitted by Jonas on August 27, 2005 - 3:42pm.

Wow Preacher, what you say is very true. I've noticed how the church has just become just another way of making money, of "selling Jesus." I'm not sure about you, but I don't think Jesus would like people selling him. He sure as heck did not approve of people selling sacrificial animals, back when it was considered the only way of making things right with God. I think if he was on earth today, he'd be doing more than overturning a few tables at the local church yardsale.

It's this kind of attitude about Christianity which has really turned me away from it. I still believe in Jesus, but I cannot, in good conscience, try to go out there and make people feel so guilty and/or afraid of their afterlife that they MUST sign up with the program.. OR ELSE. It seems wrong to me. I live my life the best way I can by the tenets Jesus left for us, hoping that will be my ministry. If someone is meant to believe, they will, but not by my own works or anything on my part. They will because it's what God wants, and whether he uses me or not isn't even my choice.

Anymore, I view myself as a man who believes in Jesus. I believe in what he said and I believe has was sent here by God. Sometimes, I don't think I have enough faith. Sometimes I wonder if this whole "rapture" thing happens, will I be "left behind?" Most Christians seem to think I would be, as I don't "believe right." Well, I guess there's only one way to find out. And honestly, sometimes I wish that I was left, either way. I'd rather stay behind and help people than retreat and leave everyone to their own devices. But I guess I don't really know what's best, anyway.

I'm not sure what brought all that on. I've just become very jaded and frustrated with "the church," to the point where I don't even go to one anymore. I believe what I do and leave it at that. But I still like reading your blog. It's church enough for me. You're a real person, someone I can identify with, and the words you say actually have an impact on my life. That's a lot more than I can say about any other pastor/priest/preacher/whatever that I've ever had contact with.

Submitted by Joel_h on August 27, 2005 - 6:22pm.

It's good to know that other preachers don't get caught up in all they hype about more and more of less and less. I sometimes get discouraged with our little handful, especially since we have a building that will seat 120. Most every Sunday I preach to 8 or ten of the faithful. If all of the faithful were at church on the same day, we would have between 20 and 30. But then we'd have some Sunday's with no one. So I am glad to get the 8 to ten, a different 8 or ten mind you, every Sunday.

God bless you for this site.

Joel

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 27, 2005 - 6:53pm.

Crass, indeed!

That is unbelievable. And you hit the nail on the head about marketing. The path to Jesus is lined on both sides by vendors selling souveirs. Peace!

Submitted by Satchel Pooch on August 27, 2005 - 8:24pm.

Thanks for the story, rlp. I have occasionally considered starting "The Church of the Messy." Sounds like if I lived near San Antonio I wouldn't have to.

Submitted by Gene on August 27, 2005 - 8:43pm.

To me, it's like the Pharisees that Jesus so despised for hypocrisy all over again. They're doing it "for the church" and "in the name of Jesus", but all in word, not in meaning.
Our church is perhaps more complicated than yours and uses shiny multi-media, but no less messy. We want to grow the church, but it's about The Word, not the bottom line.
But you are blessed in not needing to rely on your church's growth to sustain you. I hope the writing thing works...I like seeing more from you :-)

Submitted by Brent on August 27, 2005 - 9:21pm.

Sort of reminds me of something I read recently:
A boat docked in a tiny Mexican village. A tourist asked how long it took him to catch them.
"Not very long," answered the fisherman.
"But then, why don't you stay out longer and catch more?" asked the tourist.
The fisherman explained that his small catch was sufficient to meet his needs and those of his family.
The tourist asked, "But what do you do with the rest of your time?"
"I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, and take a siesta with my wife. In the evenings, I go into the village to see my friends, have a few drinks, play the guitar, and sing a few songs. I have a full life."
The tourist interrupted, "I have an MBA from Harvard and I can help you! You should start by fishing longer every day. You can then sell the extra fish you catch. With the extra revenue, you can buy a bigger boat."
And after that?" asked the fisherman.
With the extra money the larger boat will bring, you can buy a second one and a third one and so on until you have an entire fleet of trawlers. Instead of selling your fish to a middle man, you can then negotiate directly with the processing plants and maybe even open your own plant. You can then leave this little village and move to Mexico City, Los Angeles, or even New York City! From there you can direct your huge new enterprise."
"How long would that take?" asked the fisherman.
"Twenty, perhaps twenty-five years," replied the tourist. "Then you can start selling stocks and make millions!"
"Millions? Really? And after that?" asked the fisherman.
"After that you'll be able to retire, live in a tiny village near the coast, sleep late, play with your children's children, catch a few fish, take a siesta with your wife and spend your evenings drinking and enjoying your friends."

Submitted by mu on August 27, 2005 - 10:55pm.

"It seems like there is always a handful of weary pilgrims who want to step out of the ecclesiastical rat race."

Yeah. :sigh: I wish I could find a place like this in Houston. I know in a city of millions there has to be one somewhere...

The last church I visited regularly did such a thorough job of over-marketing itself. Indicative of the way they approached "pimping out" their church was what I started calling "sermon previews." After we'd sing a song or two out of the 3-song "worship service" (read: performance), someone would come up and greet the congregation and then give a catchy little synopsis of what the pastor was about to preach about, as if to say "Hey! Super cool sermon coming up! Stick around!" It always read like a commercial, too..."Do you ever feel like ___? It's easy this time of year to get caught up in ___. Today Pastor Phil is going to talk about _____ and how to _____ your ____. So sit back and relax, and enjoy the service."

Seriously, WTF.

Submitted by jmckinney on August 27, 2005 - 11:37pm.

I thought they used previews like this on television so you won't change channels.  What are they expecting, people to walk out after the songs to find another church and enjoy their "worship service" next.  Maybe flick back to the first church to check out the benediction!!.
 

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 28, 2005 - 4:57am.

just a thought: I guess it's good for those who take the kids ministry etc though. :) and church hopping might be fun - maybe the abbreviated sermon and worship - liturgy and communion elsewhere, and a third church for the best coffee. Postmodernim rules :) maybe!

Submitted by MJGribbin on August 28, 2005 - 8:01am.

www.churchmarktingsucks.com I would highly recommend RLP and anyone else interested in Church Marketing to check out the blog www.churchmarketingsucks.com . It is a great blog run by guys who want to reform the way churches market. They have some great practical ideas, in addition to showing some examples of what not to do (like RLP's Don Carlton dude).

Submitted by paulythebull on August 28, 2005 - 3:04pm.

Here's the link: Church Marketing Sucks. You left out the "e."

Pauly the Bull
http://paulythebull.blogspot.com

Submitted by amanda on August 28, 2005 - 10:50am.

i'll have to remember this the next time some complains about catholics being greedy. at least we straight up ask for your money during mass. LOL

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 28, 2005 - 11:52am.

I used to work for a marketing company that did exactly what this guy did, except with cars instead of churches.

It's a soulless, heartless business, and was easily the worst year of my life. The amount of lying and sheer inconsideration on the part of the higher ups (considering there were less than 30 people total in the 'company') was unbelievable.

I'm glad you don't buy into that garbage. It's not good for anyone on either side of the exchange.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 28, 2005 - 1:58pm.

Thanks for continuing to cultivate hopes and dreams and for delighting in the quirky, messy, and silly aspects of Covenant that seem to grow in beauty...like mismatched candles.
Erin

Submitted by jmmj on August 30, 2005 - 7:57am.

Heh, so much for "no one will say anything about it."

Submitted by polley on August 28, 2005 - 2:43pm.

Thank God for your article. I'm a 25 year old youth pastor (what do I know?) and everytime I try and say something like this, the leadership just stares at me with that, "Oh you're just young and naive" look on their faces. I live in a fairly impoverished area and I work in a church where the leadership is obsessed with becoming a mega-church. We'll never be a mega-church because we don't have the money or the know-how to become one. I just wish they would focus on ministering to those around them and let God be God in our church. I'm sure your church has it's problems, but to be honest, your church sounds like a dream come true for me. A place where people are authentic and messy and just want to be the church (whatever the hell that may look like). You're very blessed rlp. I would love to visit your church sometime if I ever find myself down Texas way.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 28, 2005 - 2:47pm.

Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but I believe a significant amount of the theology spoken and practiced by churches in the United States is not determined by a search for truth or an honest journey of devotion.

When I read this my first thought was you probably are. My personal belief is most church people are doing the best they can at the things they think are important. I believe a lot less of church is about making money than people think or want to believe.

To me the biggest problem I see is a total inward focus by mainline denominations. They don't care about reaching lost people - who's lives would be radically changed for the better - as much as they care about keeping their traditions and "the way we've always done it". Or, when I feeling particularly charitable on my high horse, they just don't know what they are doing.

Since the church is made up of people. Its always going to be messy. It can be messy small or messy big. The messy is always there its just there in different way.

And the telemarketer was an asshole, but he'd been just as big an asshole if he was selling cheese. It's his tactics that make him an ass, not his product.

Ron
http://www.reactuate.com/

Submitted by DandyKat on August 28, 2005 - 2:49pm.

Though few would come out and admit it, money continues to be a huge motivator for what we "do" as "a church" (vs. THE church.)  So when a guy like this calls, my initial reaction is to make a "sad face" :(  and think to myself that it's too bad the only way this guy can earn a buck is by trying to force churches, via guilt trips or mind games, to buy into his product.
But here's the problem...
Until "church" stops being motivated by dollars - and I mean all the way through the system - we will always have problems like this.  For example, there are churches who are struggling financially - and their FIRST course of action is to find ways to rent out their facility to other ministries or organizations as a way to bring in more cash.  It's not that this is a bad idea - in fact, it might be a great idea... but why is that the FIRST idea?  Why not get the leadership together and hold a prayer meeting focusing on questions like, "Lord, are we currently spending your money the right way?" or "Lord, is there anything we need to do in our community that will attract people to our church - for example, are we truly a loving, caring, need-filling congregation?"
I think that as long as money continues to be such a "close second god" our churches will always deal with church-a-marketers such as this fellow.

Submitted by krisinluck on August 28, 2005 - 3:27pm.

I'm going to bore you to tears with my tale. lol



When we left the Big Metropolis and moved to Tiny Town (with lots of cows), I had a vision of finding a church and making Sunday a family day where we could immerse ourselves in fellowship and spirit. A few months after the move, I was hired as the secretary at a church, and I felt it was a gift. These people knew me, and this would be our salvation.



Instead, I found myself disillusioned right out of any more fantasties of being a member of a church family up here...mostly due to the constant call for cash. It was never ending. There was a "special" (pre-printed and overpriced) offering envelope in every newsletter, every month. There was often an additional mailing done at least every other month with another pre-printed and overpriced envelope. There were even pre-printed, overpriced inserts for the Sunday bulletins that provided the outline for each Sunday's service, right down to the prayers and the Scriptures used.



They also issued envelopes on a yearly basis with the family name on them for the Sunday offerings. More spending. The reason they gave was so it could be tracked "for tax purposes". I balked. This is an extraordinarily rural area, and while I gave every week, part of my tithe went to other places like the women's shelter and the food shelves or tornado relief when a town twenty miles north was nailed with an F-4. My tithe is between me and God - not between me and the gossip who counted the money that week.



The end came for me one Friday morning when the pastor, struggling to make his sermon work with the Scriptures provided in the overpriced insert, tore page after page off his note pad and tossed it against the wall in his office. When he went to leave for lunch, I suggested he just let the Spirit work through him, rather than force the Spirit to fit in the box that company thought was necessary. And he told me he couldn't do that because he was (insert denomination here).



I was floored, and terribly saddened. I gave my notice shortly after that, and have yet to return to a church service anywhere since.



I want to clarify that this did not affect my faith - it is quite strong, except when it falters under the storms of life. I don't have the community I had hoped to find, but I have God *out* of the box, which is even better. A church is not able to feed the spirit when the focus is on "show me the money".



Now that your eyes are glazed over, I will say this. If I ever get to your part of this country, I will be paying a visit to your church. It's the community I wish I had here. Great blessings to you for managing to create it.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 29, 2005 - 8:21am.

Lets all be cynical of each other, shall we? Let's judge and label and stereotype each other so that no one will ever want to join us because we can't even love each other... our own brothers and sisters. Lets continue to seperate ourselves, so the reality of the "church" becoming one seems more impossible every day.

Submitted by DandyKat on August 29, 2005 - 3:57pm.

Okay, I take it your comment here is meant to "yell" at those of us who are being a tad critical of the over-marketing of "the church" right?
So, what is the "right" answer?  Are we not to hold each other accountable? Why is it "wrong" to discuss how some are trying to "sell God" to simply make a profit?  I believe it was Jesus himself who overturned a few tables in the temple to show his outrage at the "marketing" of His Father way back when...
Unless I totally misunderstood your own "near-cynical" remarks...

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 29, 2005 - 5:40pm.

Sorry, didn't mean to yell. My first reaction to this post was to play devil's advocate. Not sure why exactly, because I have no ties with a mega-church or the marketing of a church. Usually, even if I agree, my stomach turns when I hear or read another article or debate on the church and how it should be/not be. There are so many different opinions and theories, my head goes into circus mode if I listen to it all. I have a hard time sifting through everything and actually hearing God for myself. So, my apologies... it's just the way I reacted. Nothing personal.

Carry on, carry on. =)

Submitted by durb on August 29, 2005 - 9:01am.

I've received many similar calls. My "favorite" was someone selling "Christian" t-shirts. I'm not sure what these t-shirts were doing before they got saved. They were probably Marlboro shirts or something equally heinous. Anyway, when I declined, the salesman used a guilt technique. "God is really using these shirts to change lives." "The enemy doesn't want these shirts on the streets."
So now, since I won't buy this guy's t-shirts I'm apparently hindering the work of God. If I had it to do over again, I would have said something like: "Well, in that case, I'll cancel our church's mission donations for the month and use the money to buy your shirts!"
Of course, these were also the kind of shirts that take a "worldy" Coca-Cola or Budweiser slogan and cleverly make a Christianese saying out of it, showing both a lack of creativity and disregard for copyright and trademark laws.
www.durblog.net

Submitted by Jason on August 29, 2005 - 9:26am.

I am sure that somewhere in the OT or NT it says: 

"And it came to pass that the church shall grow and increase in numbers to feed its insatiable appetite for feeling important and relevant to the world around it"

Why else would there be a market for marketing unless it was scripture driven and needed?

I'm with you rlp, I too dream of a community where people hobble along together and attempt to help one another find some measure of peace on their journeys.  Church has almost become a nasty word in my vocabulary as it's power and homogenization has occurred throughout the culture.  Most of what I see come through the mail today is nothing more than a used car advertisment.  It is ironic that church had its humble roots in an itenerant preacher with no home, no money, and who spent his life on a journey with folks who struggled to keep up with what was happening around them.  I have been accussed by congregation members of being naive and a dreamer when I challenged them to set aside the thrist and hunger for numbers and growth and focus on the steps that they take together a companions throughout life...

grace and peace

Jason at TheoSpora

PS - Love the new site...

Submitted by RockOfVictory on August 29, 2005 - 10:15am.
Submitted by Anonymous User on August 29, 2005 - 3:40pm.

You said "At Covenant, we are free to be who we want to be, even if there are only a handful of people in our area who want to join us. "

Shouldn't your church be about what God wants it to be? Shouldn't churches be God centered rather than man centered?

You said "It’s messy, but since when is messy such a bad thing? I think messy, silly church is a lovely and precious thing in this world."

Where do I find that in God's Word? Is that what God wants do you think a silly messy church?

George

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 29, 2005 - 3:48pm.

The post seemed to be about churches who try to pull in as many people as possible purely for financial gain, versus those who are more interested in attracting people as people, and not as financial donors.

One of the posts above provided personal insight into the spiritual vacuum created when churches spend too much time on the proper 'look' and 'form' and 'cash flow' and not enough time on the true nature of God.

I think you missed the point.

Submitted by rlp on August 29, 2005 - 3:59pm.

Who we want to be is who we think God is calling us to be. C'mon now, do you really want to play this hard at the semantic game? Why not give us the benefit of the doubt.
Messy and silly are my words to describe humanity, especially people who are aware of their humanity and understand their limitations so that they rely on the grace of God. The words are mine, but I find that sentiment all over the scriptures.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 29, 2005 - 6:55pm.

I get what you are trying to say...to an extent. But (you knew it was coming) we all have to make a living and what's wrong with making a living equipping the church. How is it not wrong for a preacher to make a living preaching the word of God, but it's wrong for me to make a living developing marketing pieces for that preachers church?

Now, I don't do what I do for the money...if I was going to do it for the money I would be working with high profile corporate clients with much deeper pockets. No, I do it because I truly want to help the church communicate with excellence.

There is a middle ground, but sometimes it can be hard to hold that ground.

Michael
vision to sight.com

Submitted by rlp on August 29, 2005 - 7:31pm.

I think you've missed my point. After all, I make a living equipping the church. So I'd be a hypocrite if I said the problem was with making a living equiping the church.

 

In my case, a body of believers has called me to proclaim truth and interpret scripture and be a shepherd. In your case, perhaps you do a very nice job of equipping churches in honorable ways.

 

You've argued against an extreme position that i didn't take. I didn't say that no one ought to be paid to equip the church. What I said was that wholesale marketing of the church, so that we no longer care what is right and true but only what will get people in the pews, is wrong. It's more than wrong, it's an abomination. It's more than an abomination, really. It is perhaps the single biggest problem of Christianity in the United States. We've turned church into a business, and that's a serious problem. When the business side outweighs the spiritual side (and it often does) then we've lost our way.

 

In the specific case of this salesman, he was pretending to care about outreach, but I could tell that he was just reading off a card. His manipulative attempts to get money out of me while trying to play to his perception of what I would value and want as a spiritual leader is nothing more than base salesmanship. And I think that's hypocritical, especially so when dealing with a faith community.

Submitted by Gene on August 29, 2005 - 9:38pm.

We've turned church into a business, and that's a serious problem. When the business side outweighs the spiritual side (and it often does) then we've lost our way.
Amen to that. It's happened before. Martin Luther made his big splash when the church had become more concerned about selling indulgences and the like to raise money than about people's actual spiritual well-being.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 30, 2005 - 5:52am.

Thanks for clarifying your point. I absolutetly agree. I think of the preachers out there that once had a passion to spread the love of Christ but as they became successful also became blinded by the money, the buildings, the houses, etc.

I think the hard part is finding the middle ground...many churches either are to business minded or not business minded at all. Business principles and marketing must exist but that must be met with reaching out and serving the people who come searching for truth. We need to do both with excellence.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 30, 2005 - 12:08am.

I am not a Christian, but I have the same feelings about small, independent religious homes. I am a Unitarian Universalist, I move frequently and often there is only one UU fellowship. However, when there are two, I nearly always choose the smaller one.

Our fellowship is going through a growing phase, but it is happening organically. We've had so many people wanting to join us that we are busting out of the building. However, our approach has been very slow and steady. Growing purely for growth (or money) sake is not worthwhile. Growing to house an expanding family is a different thing.

So, for now, those of us who have been around awhile sit shoulder to shoulder in the folding chair rows, hoping that newer members and vistors feel that both emotionally and physically, we have room for them.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 30, 2005 - 7:20am.

We all need to think about what our lives would have been like if Paul and Peter and the rest of the early church hadn't been "driven by an intense need for constant growth." If they had decided to be "free to be who we want to be, even if there are only a handful of people in our area who want to join us," we wouldn't be where we are today.

All of us owe our salvation to someone who decided that "church growth" was more important than their own comfort.

Submitted by mattman on August 30, 2005 - 8:05am.

I know that I owe my salvation ONLY to Jesus. I cringe at how sanctimonious that may come across, but it is a necessary corrective to this point of view, IMO. The people who advocate church growth simply for growth's sake are the same one's who say that we're one generation away from losing the church, blah blah blah. Such statement display an utter lack of faith in the revelatory power of God in the Holy Spirit. Paul wasn't trying to "grow" the church, he was responding to God's call to spread the Gospel. Clearly others in the church (the Jerusalem church, Peter, the coptic church, etc.) responded to that call in different ways. Paul is not Christ, and he can't be the only model for how to spread the gospel.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 31, 2005 - 7:37am.

First, of course ONLY Christ saves us. But Christ chooses to use the church (his body) in that process. I think we can agree on that.

Second, I wasn't talking about only Paul. I mentioned Peter as well. He preached on Pentacost and thousands were saved. What if Peter had just received the spirit and felt comfortable just being himself (he who had already turned his back on Jesus once).

"God's call to spread the Gospel" was not just for Paul. It was for every member of the early church and every member of the church today. Maybe our disgreement lies in our definition of church "growth"-- I don't see a difference between "growth" and "spreading the gospel."

Submitted by jmmj on August 30, 2005 - 8:53am.

When I was young, I thought of the church as something pure and uncomplicated. I thought that the sacred journey of devotion and spirituality I would find in church would stand apart from my culture and bear witness to what was pure and good and decent.
  I'm a short way into Sinclair Lewis' "Elmer Gantry." When I was a child I would have been apalled at the slander, but after listening to tales from you and Tim it's amazing how right this seventy-eight year old book is.
  Thanks for being the designated driver on our messy and silly journeys.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 30, 2005 - 9:37am.

I've had the same thought. Religion and spirituality are clearly big business. Personally, I think it's gone over the top, and closes off opportunities for more authentic and creative spiritual and religious work to become known and read. The phenomenon of "The Purpose Driven Life," for example - imo, a mediocre book with nothing new to say, at best. But with his marketing platform, as a mega-churcher selling a known quantity to a readily identifiable audience, it becomes a best seller. Or Jane Fonda and Madonna, and any number of other celebrities and business successes, suddenly emerging as "gurus" and "guides" for today's seekers.

"The Market Driven Book" - maybe that could be a sequel!

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 30, 2005 - 3:50pm.

I wish I could find a church like yours where I live. A month ago I went to a church service in a lavish auditorium in a well-to-do part of town, because we met a nice man who had invited my fiance and I. The first words that came out of the preacher's mouth was about the "importance of tithing" and proceeded for a good 10 minutes to blatantly beg for money. While I understand that a church needs money to operate, I found this hard-sell to be crass and offensive, and left shortly thereafter. I was so disheartened that I haven't been to antoher church since...but as usual, you offer a ray of hope and a reason to keep looking. Thank you.

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 30, 2005 - 5:00pm.

Amen from a Lutheran brother in Christ

http://lutheranseminarylife.blogspot.com/

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 30, 2005 - 11:31pm.

Consider yourself lucky. The cold calls I get at work frequently involve cursing (as is, "you are making a big mistake not putting my call through, you *****************), yelling, etc. The tactics that guys use to try to get through to my boss are absolutely shocking. My boss happens to be my brother and he is painfully shy. My whole job is being his voice to the world and the cold calling tactic of pretending to be his good buddy just doesn't work, since I know all his friends and family. Occasionally, we have some fun with them and see how far they'll take their tale of a close relationship, but usually we just hang up as quickly as possible. I wouldn't want the so-called Christian cold calls either, but I'd guess that they at least avoid open hostility!

Submitted by Anonymous User on August 31, 2005 - 9:13pm.

Good essay with a good point about marketing and theology and a humorous look at church telemarketing. sage http://sagecoveredhills.blogspot.com/

Submitted by Anonymous User on September 2, 2005 - 5:37am.

I haven't read everyone's comments--some are excellent! but to stick my oar in anyway--

This whole church marketing/church outreach issue has much to do with our culture's business orientation. All organizations, whether profit or non-profit, are held up to a capitalistic ideal. Successful organizations/businesses expand continuously. Pure capitalism pits one business in the same field against all others--in a church context, the Assemblies church competes with the Baptist, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic and Methodist churches in town for the same "customer base." If there is more than one church of the same denomination in a community, they may compete with one another also, if their target community is the same, or mostly the same. Growth becomes more important than fellowship among congregations. Many megachurches start out as neighborhood churches who hire a very entrepreneurial pastor. In time, if the denomination has several congregations in the area, the nascent megachurch sucks members out of the nearby sister churches as well as from other denominations. The actual number of believers in a community may not go up much--just get redistributed. The Wal-Marting of the Church takes place.

I'm a Mennonite by choice, and it's been interesting to observe how my congregation responds to this cultural orientation. Because so many lifelong Mennos go into the professions and teaching, an educational, rather than capitalistic model is what we often work from, which actually impedes growth, in ways. Public schools don't evangelize, they don't go out looking for more students in the neighborhood around the school==they take what comes. It's hard to get Mennos out of a passive growth model--sure, you need to preach the word-- but in class (worship) on Sunday. Christian Education, aka Sunday School, has always gotten more of people's energy than outreach evangelism.

For me, Sabbath becomes an important theme in our walk as believers. We live in a culture controlled by a force that rejects the spirit of Sabbath--hence the growth of 24/7 businesses. Who in our ranks will rise up and witness to the Church and to those outside the Church about this? Who will preach the twin texts of "Let my people go, that they may worship me in the wilderness," and the call of Jesus to follow him? (by which we also end up in the wilderness...)

There are some voices, of course. But more of us need to join them, and make the chorus swell louder and louder.

So much for a short comment. Thanks for your patience.

Michael L. Moore
http://slowmorning.blogspot.com/
http://www.geocities.com/mlmoore_99.geo/sitemap.html

Submitted by Anonymous User on September 2, 2005 - 11:40am.

Easy antidote. Become Catholics.

A part of me is kidding, or at least sees the "cheek" of my advice to you all. Then again, I don't see how anyone can have an honest relationship with Jesus and scripture and justify the existence of more than one Christian church.

Hope things are well with you and your family, Gordon.

Peace and grace to you.

Submitted by Anonymous User on September 5, 2005 - 6:48am.

Gordon,

This article suggests a perspective that yearns for authenticity in the midst of a society hell-bent on attaing mass marketing success. Unfortunately, that urge for worldly success (read: coveteness) infected the church some thirty years ago under the name of the Church Growth Movement.

While that Movement has produced some helpful material, it has adopted a worldly approach to evangelism and its short term success has brought a crop of worldly Christians into the church who are now in positions of power.

More >> http://www.paross.com/christianmarketing.htm

Phil

Submitted by Anonymous User on April 22, 2006 - 11:18am.

i'm in person a young pregant mother that needs help someone pray for me? Then i'm having problems within the home

Submitted by Anonymous User on April 22, 2006 - 4:50pm.

I'm tired of hearing all this outreach ministry from Churches. Before bringing new people into the Church they should try to outreach to the ones in the Church already. We just had a study on Outreach and was told if you need me anytime day or night give me a call. Well, I called 3 times (last time was yesterday). I only needed help at the maximum was for 10-15 minutes. I'm waiting on surgery and don't suppose to lift anything. Good thing I can at least fix me a sandwich cause if I waited for the teacher/anybody to come by I would be shit out of luck.

Submitted by Anonymous User on October 10, 2006 - 9:59pm.

Check out the conversation happening on this subject at philcooke.com

Submitted by Anonymous User on March 16, 2007 - 5:09pm.

I developed a latex allergy after working with food service. I also became intolerant to chocolate, tomatoes, anything citrus, MSG and some wheat products. WBR LeoP

Submitted by Anonymous User on March 16, 2007 - 6:55pm.

I developed a latex allergy after working with food service. I also became intolerant to chocolate, tomatoes, anything citrus, MSG and some wheat products. WBR LeoP