Dear RLP

October 7, 2005 - 11:03am

Dear RLP,

You wrote something in an essay in your book called, "Why Don't You Write Something About Prayer?"

"You don't pray so you can change things in the world. It's not magic. You might ask, and you might hope for change, but ultimately changing things cannot be your motivation."

This leaves me with the question, what the heck is your motivation supposed to be? To see more of God? To be changed so that you become the answer to your prayer? I've read stuff to that effect.

With thanks,   A.

-----------------------------------------

A,

I think that if your only motivation for praying is hoping to receive something, you are likely going to be disappointed. Prayer is a long journey of listening and slowly becoming. I think the journey itself is the most important thing.

But that's a rather mysterious answer, isn't it? It's the sort of thing a person understands in hindsight. It's the kind of answer that might be true, but might not be helpful. Why don't I share with you some of my own more specific motivations for praying.

If I close my eyes and think about my own journey of prayer, here are some motivations that come to mind:

  • I pray in obedience to Christ, who commanded us to pray. That's probably the bottom line for me. Jesus prayed a lot. All night sometimes. If I call myself a follower of Christ, I must become humble enough to do the same, even if I do not understand prayer. (And I do NOT understand it.)
     
  • I pray out of a desire to communicate with the Creator of all that is. I have a desire to become more aware of the constant presence of God in the world. Yes, I have this crazy hope that praying might lead me in this direction. However, I'm not looking for quick fixes or even to feel good on some specific day. Even this very healthy desire can become an idol if I only pray to achieve some kind of enlightenment
     
  • I pray to honestly express my desires for myself and for others. In this, I pray very much as a child would pray. What God does with these intercessions, I do not know. It doesn't seem important to me at this stage of the game.
     
  • I pray because I am very small and the intelligence behind the universe is very large. Prayer is humbling, and proper humility is a good thing.
     
  • I pray because I want to. I like it. Just today I sat before a beautiful fountain, listening and whispering small prayers. I enjoy praying, especially a contemplative and meditative sort of praying. I find it more relaxing now that I've quit thinking of prayer as a job or a chore.

If you desire to know about prayer, that desire is a wonderful place to start. You don't need manuals or instructions. Just sit quietly and be honest if and when you speak.

rlp

Used with permission from A. Slightly edited from the original.

Submitted by Anonymous User on October 7, 2005 - 11:20am.

I love the idea of prayer not being considered an obligation but a joy. We tend to just pray, pray, pray b/c God'll be ticked if we don't, instead of looking at it as this beautiful time with our loving Father. Sweet.

Chad
mrpreacher.com

Submitted by Jared Cramer on October 7, 2005 - 11:45am.

Or, as Blaise Pascal said, "Through prayer, God gives his creatures the dignity of causality."

Submitted by rbarenblat on October 7, 2005 - 12:15pm.

Right on, RLP. I wrote a blog post a while back that relates to this post, I think (But does it work?). Speaking of petitionary prayer in particular, I said, "I think God's answer is always 'yes' if the prayer is said with intent and with an open heart. I just don't think the 'yes' always comes in the form of giving us what we said we wanted."

 ***

"Why write unless you praise the sacred places?" -- Richard Howard

Submitted by Anonymous User on October 7, 2005 - 2:00pm.

I just wanted to tell you this:

I'm not a religious person. Never have been, and don't really understand it. I find it hard to view religious observance as anything other than hypocrisy - either unthinking obedience to what their parents half-heartedly taught them as kids, or an exercise in following the herd. Very few people have ever been able to explain their beliefs, or what they get out of their observances, in a way that I can even make any sense out of. But you consistently do.

You help me understand how a person can honestly mean it when they perform religious acts and express religious beliefs. It's a real pleasure to see a person of faith who is so capable of clearly stating, in plain English, what that means to him and why he does what he does. That's why I read your blog - to better understand the concepts of religion and faith, without feeling pressured to share them.

Submitted by rlp on October 7, 2005 - 2:09pm.

Dear anonymous,
 
This is the highest compliment a minister could receive. I pray that I'm indeed worthy of it. If you are ever in San Antonio, let's get Mexican food. Love to hear about your life. I never pressure people to try to make them become Christians, but I feel called to tell my story and hear the stories of others. Thank you.

Submitted by see through faith on October 9, 2005 - 12:52pm.

This is a wonderful response to rlp's telling his story. I hope you can take him up on his offer of Mexican food. I would (grin). You too have a story. We all do. What makes Gordon different IMHO is that he also listens. I hope I could catch that from him :)

be blessed as you journey :)

Submitted by Anonymous User on October 10, 2005 - 2:26pm.

this anonomous person summed up precisely my reaction as well.

Submitted by lonesome sock on October 7, 2005 - 2:35pm.

Some one told me recently "prayer doesn't change a thing....it's God that does".If that is true, it could pull the rug from under the feet (knees?) of many who pray to God for this, that and the other everyday of their lives.  

Submitted by Anonymous User on October 7, 2005 - 2:50pm.

I pray that God will provide my 'daily bread'. But anytime 'things' are the focus of prayer (and our focus is our foundation), we are on sinking sand.

I ascribe to Matthew 6:33, when discussing the desire for 'things', 'needs' or even 'desires'.

But any time we pray for our needs, it must be within the context of daily needs (ie- the Lord's Prayer)... a daily, manageable portion, according to the will of God. This is God's economy. He instructed us to 'ask'. But He also instructed us to seek Him FIRST... not stuff.

I heard it put this way... "if you seek the Father's face, you'll get His hand. If you seek His hand, you'll miss Him altogether".

I find this to be a blanced approach to supplication. But I agree, the most wonderful times are in contemplative meditation & worship.

Nice post.

Submitted by Anonymous User on October 7, 2005 - 5:06pm.

I sometimes wonder about prayer so I thank you for this article. I think you are right there are many kinds of prayers. And I suspect that God really prefers that we spend time with Him. And part of that spending of time is prayer.

What puzzles me though is why God doesn't answer some very legitimate prayers. Sometimes I think God's response is very fickle. This God can part waters, raise the dead, add years to the life of someone, stop time, and yet it seems very sporatic in whom and how he intervenes.

I gave up on God when I was 8. I prayed three prayers to God (of course maybe He didn't listen because my parents weren't Christian so I didn't go to church when I was a kid.) But still I had asked God to stop my father's sexual abuse of me. God was silent. I asked God to kill my father, no response. I asked God to kill me, no response. I think in retrospect that maybe I am glad God didn't answer the second prayer for that would have led to a lot of guilt. But I don't understand why He was so silent on the first one.

Some imply that there is free will and that God had to give my father free will. Why give an abuser free will? I don't recall God asking me if I minded being abused?

I think think there is some bitterness and a lack of trust in God on my part because of His silence on these legitimate prayers. If He couldn't help then, why should He listen now and even if He listens would He care enough to help? And then when you look at the pain and suffering of those on earth today. I just wonder.

Of course, I guess God could be saying I gave my son for you and you have salvation, what more do you want? Is that what God is thinking? I just don't get it.

Sorry for the tirade, but I wish I could understand God's quietness in situations where, if I were the loving parent (Abba Father) I would be in there fighting for my kids.

Thanks for listening,
Heather

Submitted by Anonymous User on October 7, 2005 - 5:25pm.

Heather,

Your story sounds heart-breaking. I too know what it is to be sexually abused for years as a child. But I also know what it is to be free of the pain of it as well and to be emotionally healed. If you are interested in my story, you can find it here.

Regarding prayer,
I think it's first and foremost about intimacy, which is the central them of what RLP writes. But I also think that when our relationship with the Father is healthy and strong, it also has great impact in the world around us as we learn to pray for what is already on His heart.

"The prayer of a person living right with God is something powerful to be reckoned with." James 5:16b (The Message)

-PastorBurt

Submitted by Anonymous User on October 7, 2005 - 5:30pm.

Oops, those links didn't show up right. If interested, paste this into your browser: pastorburt.lifewithchrist.org/permalink/15332

-Pastor Burt

Submitted by Anonymous User on October 7, 2005 - 7:42pm.

Heather, I also said these prayers every night as a child. I still pray for the last one. The pain is unbearable at most times. The thoughts of "what did I do wrong?" and "why is God punishing me?" are always in my mind.

My father took me to church while at the same time I was his "secret love". This destroyed my faith in God, how can it not? But I have recently started going back to church, trying to learn how to believe again. The days that I am still here, the closer I am in believing. Although it is a daily struggle.

Submitted by shadow on October 7, 2005 - 7:44pm.

forgot to sign in, I just posted that comment to Heather.
shadow
 

Submitted by rlp on October 7, 2005 - 10:07pm.

Heather,
 
Stories like yours humble me because I haven't had to go through what you are describing. This is what I mean when I say that I do not understand prayer. The bottom line is, I struggled with a lot of anger, lack of understanding, puzzlement, etc. And the big question is just what you ask. What about times when what we pray for is so obviously a good thing?
 
I do not know the answer and I feel so strongly for someone like you who tells a story like that. I do not know the answer. I just keep praying and believeing/hoping that there is some reason why we believe so strongly in evil and goodness. Our belief in both of them is so deep.
 
Blessings on you.

Submitted by see through faith on October 9, 2005 - 1:00pm.

What your father did was a sin against you Heather,:( It most certainly was not God's will and He cried with you. That probably doesn't help much when the prayer of your heart was that it would stop. And it didn't. I can see how difficult it is to reconcile that disappointment (mild word but I can't find a better one) with a loving God. Worse too it has to have distorted your view of a loving father.

My understanding is that Abba was there fighting for us. That's why He sent Jesus so that we could be reconciled with Him again - that sin would no longer keep us apart - that our sin can be absorbed into the cross.

It is encouraging that you read rlp's words and my prayer is that you will find the healing that you deserve because you can find Jesus here.

Submitted by The Token Catholic on October 7, 2005 - 6:21pm.

Wow. Beautiful!

Submitted by Stacy McKenna Seip on October 7, 2005 - 6:21pm.

And I do NOT understand it.THIS is why I read you, RLP, and find myself repeatedly linking you in my own blog (and hear several of my friends have appreciated the links). Your openness and willingness to acknowledge and admit and be honest about your humanity, fallibility, and UNCERTAINTY about things in the religion make you so much more  approachable and sympathetic than what most people see from the Church as a whole.  It is a difficult road, being a Preacher Man. There is SO MUCH socially ingrained pressure to be "perfect" or "better", to have all the answers. The fact that you remind us (constantly!) that we don't have to be perfect to be "good Christians" is, perhaps more than any specific essay, incredibly reassuring and comforting. And inspiring. Thank you.

Submitted by Aimee on October 7, 2005 - 9:37pm.

man, preach, you hit the nail on the head again! you know, when i went through cancer treatment this was a major struggle for me. i consider myself a mature Christian. and yet i found myself bombarded, defensive, and even shaken by the people who came out of the woodwork to tell me to "have faith" and "pray for healing". people still don't understand it when i tell them that i tried NOT to pray for healing. i just wanted to submit myself to God's will and glorify Him- whatever the outcome of the cancer brought me. because in my mind, i couldn't buy that "pray for healing" crap when i knew that Mr. Smith who sits on the other side of the sanctuary lost his faithful, God-loving, wife to cancer. did God fail her? was her faith not strong enough to save her?
 
my brother and i were just dialoging about this last week- when two teams in a soccer game pray against each other, and each asking to win the game, how do we process the outcome? it goes beyond bad theology and becomes a real life dilemma that certainly doesn't encourage people towards faith. well, actually, it can challenge someone's faith, and i suppose in that sense it could end up encouraging them further on. but i have a family on my caseload that told me that they prayed to God that their daughter didn't have cancer, and it turned out she didn't. but if she did, they said, they would leave the church and stop believing in God because they just couldn't believe if there was a God, He would allow something like that to happen. wow. i can't say anymore about that here. but suffice it to say that prayer can surely be a stumbling block for many people.
 
Jesus told us how to pray. it's really quite simple. it's just that we're complicated , intellectual creatures.

  Always in God's Grace~ 
______
"Coolness might help in your negotiation with people through the world, maybe, but it is impossible to meet God with sunglasses on." ~ Bono

Submitted by Danny Bradfield on October 8, 2005 - 3:03pm.

Last night, the East Nicolaus Spartans football team, which had been ahead most of the game, were struggling to keep the visiting Pierce H.S. Bears from reaching the endzone before time ran out. As they got closer and closer, the fans got more and more excited. Someone next to me said, "Oh, gosh, we need a miracle!" And then the person on the other side said, "Well, hey, we got the pastor right here!"

The Bears made it into the endzone with 12 seconds left in the game, tying it at 20-20. Then they successfully made the point after touchdown to win the game.

Did they win because I was too skeptical to pray to God to invervene?
Did they win because someone on the Bears' side did pray?
Or could it have just possibly been the case that, on this night, the Spartans just couldn't hold 'em?

And what do my fellow spectators think of God now?

Danny

Submitted by psr on October 7, 2005 - 10:38pm.

Heather, I was touched by your response and wanted to join you in that struggle. Our daugher was sexually molested by her grandfather over a period of several years. When we found out about this, it shook my faith to the core. In trying to come to some kind of terms with this, I felt that I needed to decide for myself whether God was all loving OR all powerful -- but that God could not be both and allow this to happen to an innocent child. I have come to believe that evil can prevail and that God cannot stop it. My faith has not been shattered, but redefined. I struggle with any prayer that asks God to intervene, act on someone's behalf or provide anything material. I do know that prayer can be profoundly meaningful when I bring my own life and struggles to God for guidance and for strength. During these years of struggling with issues of faith and prayer and evil, I have sensed God's love surrounding me at every turn. I hope that for you.

Submitted by laurengray on October 8, 2005 - 9:15am.

Like many of you, I wrestle with the concept and actuality of prayer, but I have also been graced by the faith of others who pray with me or for me.  I think prayer is lovely in that way.  In some respects it is an act of communion alone with God, but it can also be a beautiful demonstration of the body of Christ.

 

Submitted by wondering04 on October 8, 2005 - 4:20pm.

I am glad that your faith remained intact. When I had been hurt there was no faith, for there was no God in our house at all. I do know now that satan is the one who causes so much pain and hurt on our earth. And while I am puzzled by what happened and why God didn't intervene, but at the same time, a world without God would be even worse. I just wish that free will was not so expensive for the victim. But at the same time, God let me do my wrong free will decisions and I also hurt people. I turned around and repented, I am hoping my parents did, for I would not want them to face eternity away from God. I think that best thing I did was learn to forgive. It broke a lot of chains. But I have to hope that in the end God wins.
Heather

Submitted by Anonymous User on October 8, 2005 - 10:34am.

if we look at the disciple's prayer, as Jesus taught, i think it'll help us understand why we pray.

the basic format is:
Recognition -Our father...
Adoration - hallowed be thy name
Submission -thy kingdom come...
Petition - give us this day our daily bread
Confession - forgive us our trespasses...
Protection - lead us not into temptation...
Exaltation - for thine in the kingdom...

so... 1/7 of the disciple's prayer is petition...or asking for something to happen. that's the model we're given. so if the only reason you're praying is to ask for stuff...maybe it's time to read up on how to pray.

-philip likens

Submitted by Anonymous User on October 8, 2005 - 12:47pm.

I heartily agree.

Someone commented that this post makes a good companion to my own postings about prayer. I agree.

Curious Servant

http://jobstale.blogspot.com/

Submitted by jeremyca on October 8, 2005 - 5:07pm.

After reading the responses here, and thinking about prayer, I guess I have something to share. I was taught to pray early on, simple prayers for a long time, until I got sick a few years ago. Then my praying began in earnest for God to "spare my life" so it went. I guess for some, "why doesn't God answer some prayers" question comes up for me to, I can share this. Over the last 12 years with HIV prayer has been more a "transformative" tool, rather than an "attainment" tool. This I know is true, "Life is all about perception" namely mine - in my life. The more I pray, the more "in line" I become with God's will, in the act of prayer, I become that prayer, that is to say I have HAD my share of bad days and years, but today, I can look back and see where my prayers had been answered and those answers did not come overnight, but over Time. I guess it comes down to faith. You either have it - or you don't. Why are we / I still breathing? I cannot answer that, but I can tell you this, I must still have work to do, so today I choose to pray for life and life abundantly. Prayer, for me, is like the act of ritual. Properly performed ritual with prayer guarantees me some inner strength. Daily or weekly attendance "In" that ritual brings me into communion with God and my community. And where community participates in a ritual, that prayer becomes Powerful. When I don't have the strength to trust in my prayers, then I rely on the prayers of my community to walk with me until I can stand on my own confident in my prayers. ( I guess its all in how you perceive prayer ) and the power you put behind your own prayers, and how that ritual of prayer transforms you over time. It has happened that way for me.

Submitted by Anonymous User on October 9, 2005 - 7:03am.

I have always thought of prayer as the thing that keeps me sane. I like to talk to God OUT LOUD, even, and be real with him, as if He's right there nodding along. It's out of desperate need that I pray. It's out of reverant love that I find myself crying out all that is on my heart. RLP, my husband has been reading your blog for some time, and I just happened upon it today, and I will now be looking in a lot more often. I do think that there can be some prayers of desire, but they must be coupled with the understanding that it doesn't matter if what we want happens or not. What matters is that God is glorified.
Andrea

Submitted by see through faith on October 9, 2005 - 1:03pm.

love this Andrea :) thanks for sharing it

Submitted by tom reindl on October 9, 2005 - 3:58pm.

Hi Gordon,

I think your answer regarding prayer was very well articulated, possibly the best I have heard. Maybe it's because you don't give preprogrammed answers about "why prayer is important" the way many modern evangelical preachers/writers do. Maybe it's because prayer is actually a personal experience of yours.

When I read other preacher/writers talk about why prayer is important, I get the feeling they haven't ever really tried it themselves. I am sure they have actually prayed, but the way in which they write leaves the impression that they haven't. It all seems so mechanical, ya know? Thanks for giving us an experiential account of the prayer in your life. It's better than a textbook. :)

Submitted by wondering04 on October 9, 2005 - 9:50pm.

So, could prayer be for us, so that we articulate more clearly and understand more clearly what we are asking for (either ourselves or other's needs)? I keep coming to the principle that God is sovereign. I guess that is ok, but then do prayers to a sovereign God do much good? If he can do what He wants when He wants to do it, how much does a prayer change things.
Oh, I know Abram convinced God not to destroy Sodom if there were 10 good men, and a few got an answer. But for me it seems that it is more a case of praying to a void.
How do you reconcile unanswered, legitimate prayers?
Heather

Submitted by rlp on October 9, 2005 - 10:38pm.

I don't try to reconcile prayers with anything, certainly not my own understanding of reality. The only question that is important to me is this: Will I keep praying, or give up praying?
 
I don't really trust myself to know whether a prayer is legitimate or not. I don't really know what that means. I pray. To be faithful, I continue to pray, whether or not I understand anything that is going on.

Submitted by see through faith on October 10, 2005 - 1:26am.

rlp's answer was good.

God's timing isn't ours either, and I think that's what keeps me praying too. Mostly though I think God is interested in me, not in fixing my situation.

It sounds quite mad really, but I can tell him anything - even when doing the dishes :) prayer isn't only 'holy' moments on our knees in a sanctuary, though those are good too!

Submitted by Pascale Soleil on October 10, 2005 - 12:24am.

Prayer has baffled me too. Before my entry into the church, prayer looked to me like nothing more than the whining of spoiled children begging for more stuff. It didn't help that in my family, when I was a child, asking for something was the surest way NOT to get it.

.

Then, after my exploration of Transcendental Meditation and Zen, I discovered the Christian tradition of contemplative prayer, and my attitude started to change. If meditation could be prayer, maybe there was something to it. Prayer could be more about listening, or being open and receptive, than demanding and complaining. I could think of prayer as creating a place for real conversation with the divine ~ a conversation that might take place only and completely in silence.

.

Later, I began to serve in my church's healing ministry. I can now say, with a strange assurance, that the single most valuable thing I do with my life is to pray with my brothers and sisters for the healing of their deepest wounds, whether spiritual, emotional, mental, or physical. These prayers are themselves professions and witnesses of faith. Whether miracles have taken place is not for me to say. But I have seen and experienced healing in the very act of laying on hands. It is a rare privilege to participate in this exchange. We are all made partners, all God's hands, in such prayer.

.

Every week people come forward to pray for healing for themselves or another. Some people come every week. It is in asking that their prayers are answered. There is wholeness where there was none. Don't ask me to explain it, I can't. It's a mystery.

.

But it's so beautiful.

both2and: beyond binary

Submitted by Wandering Willow on October 10, 2005 - 10:35am.

I keep wanting to say something about this wonderful post, but it would take too much time to write everything I'd like to say. So here is the summary: I really really love the way you walk through exactly how you feel about various things - in this case, prayer. You don't take the stance that there's An Answer or The Answer that you have to dredge up... you just do some things without fully understanding them. I feel that way about prayer too. I really want to understand prayer, but it's too vast to "get" more than a little bit of it. But I love it, so I do it, even though every prayer I say is totally different from every other one.

http://blogs.salon.com/0003947
www.wanderingwillowblog.blogspot.com

Submitted by paladin on October 10, 2005 - 11:02am.

Who rises from prayer a better man, his prayer is answered. – George Meredith

Submitted by Darkhawk on October 10, 2005 - 2:36pm.

I have often thought that one of the most central parts of religious practice for me is the relationship with the divine.

Prayer is a form of spending time with friends, that way.

Submitted by Anonymous User on October 10, 2005 - 11:29pm.

As a woman in a faith tradition that constantly forces me to confront the issue of submissiveness, I confess that the thing I struggle with most- is this discipline of submissiveness that is prayer. It is solely a control issue for a control freak like myself. It is letting go of that control and listening in His grace. I desire that solace-that comfort, but there is fear there in letting go and letting God.

"Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most." -Dostoyevsky

Submitted by Anonymous User on October 11, 2005 - 6:10am.

Like many have stated, I pray for many things...but I think formost I pray not that God change the world, or my family's particular woes, but that He change me to accept them.

-Michael Main

Submitted by Anonymous User on October 11, 2005 - 12:06pm.

As the song goes..."If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans."

Submitted by laurasdad on February 22, 2007 - 9:06am.

Prayer is not magic.
Lots of stuff going on in my life now - just like in everyone else's. Some are old - like my struggle with debt for the past several lifetimes, and some are new - like my daughter's battle with cancer now comes with a time-line. On top of that I'm getting older and I need to grab hold of something to help pull myself off the floor.

My pastor turned me on to RLP and I've been reading the book. Last night I read about how the Baptists treated their pastor Tom when he had stuff going on in his life and I got mad along with Preacher at how far we fall from being a vessel of God. I wonder why God puts up with us?

Even when crap happens and I pray about it, I want to put the blame on God. I can't fix myself and I've prayed that He change me over and over again but I'm still me. I've read so many books on prayer I'm more confused than I was before I started looking. Either I didn't get what I prayed for because my faith was too weak (even though I have the same faith of Christ - where's it at?), or I was praying against God's will, but He wouldn't take the time to tell me I was wasting my breath so I kept praying because God likes persistent prayer - but if you pray for something more than once, that's unbelief, so it goes back to lack of faith......

I've learned that Jesus didn't get His prayers answered the way He wanted them every time either. He prayed for followers and ended up with Peter and Judas; He prayed for his neighbors but they saw Him as a carpenter and not the Messiah so only a few people were healed; He prayed in Gesthemane that the cup would pass, but we all saw what happened in The Passion of Christ. If Christ couldn't come up with a formula that worked for Him every time, how can we?

In a lot of ways I can identify with Gordon's doubts and frustrations and I too express myself in colorful (or off-color) ways. Often people don't know whether I'm a Christian or a scoundrel. I'm both. It's refreshing to be honest and not pretend to be something I'm not. My spirit may be one with Christ, but two-thirds of me enjoys hanging out with the Enemy. Did God intend for us to be schizophrenic when He made us in three parts?

Anyway, as far as prayer goes, who Else are we going to turn to?