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Good to have you back. I refrained from commenting on your last post precisely because of the heated feelings on both sides. Frankly, I still have a lot of memories of hurt people from a decade ago when my church wrestled with this issue. When I thought about commenting, all those feelings flooded back to me and it seemed too fresh again. Yet I am glad you created a place for discussing this. The worst feeling I had when our church went through being kicked out of various Baptist associations was when close friends said to me and my husband, "we disagree with you and we don't need to hear your reasons for believing what you believe. You are wrong." So thanks for allowing the dialogue.

"I'm always amazed at how angry people can get and how sure of themselves they are."

I'm just starting conversion. I think. I might get scared and give up. But, I'm looking at Jesus seriously for the first time ever, these days.

And, what I've decided is that you HAVE to be sure of yourself, or you HAVE to admit you're a sinner, through and through.

Me? I'm a sinner. I think we're pretty much all sinners. That's what Mother Teresa said. That's human nature. That's what I get out of the Eden story. We want the one thing we can't have. That's what I get out of the Passion, so far--that we will Kill God, literally, because he's breaking our religious rules. And, there's HUGE irony in that one.

But, if you don't want to admit that you're a sinner by nature, if you're uncomfortable with it, then you have to pretend and be strident in your piety. And, that's where the condemnation comes from, I think.

Taking a 5 day break simply meant the post stayed at the top of the pile. Hopefully this means more people read it and spent some time thinking about it. Thinking is good.

I love your line about extreme epistemological needs. That makes me smile.

- Rachel

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"Why write unless you praise the sacred places?" -- Richard Howard

I’m glad I found out that Epistemology is a branch of philosophy that deals with the nature, origin and scope of knowledge and not what I first thought might be--the philosophy of episiotomy. Thank goodness!

Way to be, rlp, and thanks. Honestly, I am more open to the possibility that I'm a figment of my own imagination than to the idea that my gay friends are inherently sinful. I appreciate you putting a Christian face on this.

I look forward to your next syllable, as always.

w

I have some rather extreme epistemological needs.
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Another sentence I've never heard before...

Gordon, I just want to say thanks for being real. I really mean that. I've been attending Southeastern College - a division of the Seminary- for the last two years working on a little A.Div. The self-righteous attitude here is more than I can take. While I am a confirmed heterosexual, I am divorced and remarried. Right there I am a moderate despite the rest of my theology. The attitude here toward homosexuals, and women serving in the church drove me to seek out the opinions of those who are more "open minded". As a result of my search I found your blog on the gay bar fantasy. WOW! I saw with spirit-filled eyes the true meaning of love and truly what it means to love the sinner and hate the sin. You have helped me see the love of Jesus in whole new way, and for that I will be eternally grateful. I apologize for writing so much. I just wanted to let you know that more fruit continues to grow on your tree. GOD Bless You!

I did not set out to argue or cause heated discussion but I probably did. I have been convicted of that and have concluded that I no longer need to "prove my point". I am not without opinions or fearful of good debate but I do have a fresh understanding about the actual results of these debates. More often than not, no one changes their minds and in these exchages we cause hurt and discord amoung one another. This conviction led me to stop responding to those that challenged my views, so my apologies to those that were waiting for a reply.

I rather enjoyed the conversation. If you really want to stir up some contention start a topic on the subject of "traditional hell". What do you believe about it? I am a believer who actually believes Jesus IS the savior of the world (not a potential savior), and I am a heretic according to "traditional orthodoxy". So wassupwitdat preacha?!

One last comment, and then I'll shut up. I'm with you guys. Arguing with a wall is stupid. It brings strife, contention, envy and pain, the very things that Christians have been taught to avoid.

Personally, I used to want to fight. I wanted to make my point known. Then I entered the world of academia and discovered that people like that write books with little or nothing to say. They posit a hypothesis and then watch the rest of the world attack it like rabid dogs.

I'm sick of the fight. I quit. Let the theologians and academics have their fights. Let them tear each other up and destroy each other in the name of Jesus Christ. The Southern Baptists can have their self-righteous bigotry. Give me Jesus and a gay man any day and I'll show you the Love of GOD.

RLP, even though I still disagree with your conclusion about homosexuality, I'm grateful for your courage in the process. I'm not sure about anything either. I have so many questions about obvious conflicts in scripture, and I hate the hypocrisy of our our world(Christian and non) So, I cling tight to what I come closest being surest about: Jesus. He will someday help me see clearly. You have helped me in my clinging. Thanks!

Curt in KC

The only theology I'm sure about is Matthew 22:36-40 (the greatest commandment: "love God, love your neighbor; On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.") For me, any interpretation of the Bible or "Christian" behavior has to pass that test.

I don't believe homosexuality is a sin. But regardless, we're all sinners (good stuff above, Veronica). Period. ("Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone.") If churches keep out sinners, they'll be empty except perhaps some self-deluded hypocrites.

If we could see how broken we are, we would not notice the cracks in our neighbors (the old plankeye thing).

There seems to be deliberate tension in scripture concerning many issues. I wish God had, through undeniable divine inspiration, been 100% clear on every issue. But think about it. If He had we would have simply translated all of that into a set of rules and would have foolishly thought that if we kept those rules we would merit His favor. (The Pharisees had about 660 rules) What would that do to the whole concept of His grace?

BUT, there are a few things we need to be sure of, otherwise, though well intentioned, our faith is meaningless. So I'll have to expand on the following quote from a response in this thread " And, what I've decided is that you HAVE to be sure of yourself, or you HAVE to admit you're a sinner, through and through." to I am sure/admit that I am a sinner through and through. I am sure/admit that I am saved by Grace alone.

I have read many arguments from both sides of the debate and this will always remain a contentious issue with neither side having the conclusive 'last word'. I fall on the 'homosexuality is a sin' side. But I wholeheartedly agree with many arguments and points made by the 'pro-h' side. (I don't want to use the word 'side' but that's as much as my language will allow to get my point across.)

I still think it's good to discuss these issues provided we begin from the starting point that we are all sinners saved by grace, we all continue to wrestle with our own sin and what it means to love God and love our neighbor, our utmost concern is that our meanderings draw us closer to the truth, it is done in a loving way (and it can be), we are teachable and we are always honest about the inconsistencies in our own arguments, suppositions and assumptions.

We basically have most of the NT because the Apostles were addressing the errors of the various churches. But no matter how bad they were (or how bad we assume they were), the apostles always began their epistles with "dear brothers and sisters in Christ". Amen.

Warren

Dear Real Live Preacher, Wow, I'm in San Antonio too and have just heard about your blog and church. I was raised in an SBC church, the perfect little girl, very much loved by her Father and her daddy. We were the family who NEVER got to see Disney on Sunday night because we where in Church every time the doors opened. The devistation when my daddy was called home to be with the Lord wrecked me. I continued trying to be the perfect girl/woman only to be abandoned by my husband. I began a rebellion where I still feel its wake sometimes. When I started working for a major SBC organization in Alabama, I found myself feeling like a double agent, the Saturday sinner and the Sunday saint. I began to see the politics of our SBC, pretty near a political party. I nearly lost my job. It is so easy to say God abhores the homosexual, until you know and fall in brotherly love with someone. It's so easy to practically excommunicate a divorcee until you are that divorcee. We tend to see a political correctness for a perfect world, but we aren't in one because of sin. God was very angry and sorrowed by the sin of Adam and Eve, but He covered them in fig leaves and continued His relationship with them even when Cain killed Able. He didn't send a lightening bolt to wipe them out and start over. We are redeemable. Yes, we all still live with the consequences of that sin and our sin, but Praise God, He sent His Son to redeem us, to wash away that sin, embracing us as if we have no sin. He covers our sin with the Blood of Christ, embracing us, loving us, yet sorrowful we still fall victim to sin. God loves the weak, the homosexual, the divorcee, the sinner, but is sorrowful of the sin and will judge the sin later. Thanks for your blogs, I'll be in church soon! CC

Wow! I can't tell you how awesome it is to read the entries of brothers and sisters in Christ who can disagree, argue, debate, and still come together and say, "Hey, I love you and accept you." We're all sinners, and that's why we needed a Savior. I believe that as you grow in Christ, God will reveal things in your life that are wrong and that need to change, and He'll give you whatever you need to change, if you ask. He has done/is doing that in my own life.

I, too, was raised Southern Baptist. But when the SBC began telling me that I HAD to vote for Candidate X, just because Candidate X SAYS he's against abortion and homosexuality, and made me feel like I was just going straight to hell if I didn't agree with them, I decided, "I just can't be a Southern Baptist any more."

Mark