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Worthy choices, all.

But what about what is left when you take those roles away? Remove the writer, the pastor, the father, the husband. Is there a piece of Gordon reserved just for him? At least a little nugget from which all others stem? That's the one I struggle to identify - and somehow define - when plagued by similar thoughts.

Giving ourselves away is really all we have to give, in the end and, arguably, its the closest imitation of Christ we can hope for. ::thrive!

Gordon--This is why you are such a great father, husband and brother. We love you for all you do for the rest of us.

Sorry, I hadn't realized I needed to login. All set up now and ready to be accountable for my own comments :) So, once again:

Giving ourselves away is really all we have to give, in the end and, arguably, its the closest imitation of Christ we can hope for. ::thrive!

Thanks for the gift.

What is under all that? That's the easiest question I've known you to ask, Gordon. Under all that is a child of God, beloved and cherished not for what he does, but just because he is. A child of God who in every way, even when not striving, reflects the image of God. You may not recognize that child, but God does.

Sparks

Isn't this how each of us begin...in the womb, helpless, fetal position, without definintion of personality, or "worth" as defined in the human realm? It is that Glob of humanity that God looks on and loves unconditionally. He is GOOD.

I think as we grow, the things we give ourselves to do define us. As one who has lived much of my life giving myself only to my own needs, searching for freedom FROM responsibility, I speak highly of freedom THROUGH responsibility. Freedom to become the woman God has intended. To experience the bittersweet beauty of life.

But always underneath, that Glob of humanity that is lovable not for what I do, but because of what HE did.

Do you think there would be any more "you" left if you had never given yourself to those things? I'd think they account for most of the fact that there's any "you" to begin with.

Whoa, now that is just disturbing. Excellent writing, and a real open window into you... but disturbing to me, nonetheless. It leaves my stomach just a little quivery - probably not a real word, but you get the idea. Very dark, very lurid description. And it opens my mind up to so much to think about.

I guess that's the goal of a good writer, isn't it? To get others to think in ways they might not otherwise?

Somehow I think that's the way it is supposed to be.

There's that little story about the seed not having life unless it is buried and dies.

Oo- the farmer got it on the head:

"If the roles you describe casting off comprise the bulk of what currently defines you, and under whose auspices the journey can feel like a burden, then being shed of them, even for a brief time, is like removing that which you're looking for."

Perfect.
And I'd like to add, this journey is necessary in order to come back to the beginning, but with a different level of understanding- the journey is necessary in order to recognize that what you're searching for is, in fact, right here and right now. It is most certainly a difficult journey, to separate yourself long enough to realize your relationships and life work do not define you, but they are necessary for you to be who you are.

When I read this -- it reminds me of a sign I saw at a women-centered website the other day -- with the message: "Who were you before you put yourself last?" Like the others who commented, I know "you" are more than this blinking embryonic thing. You are there. You are just buried. I think perhaps the question in the sign is a good one to ask. I know how you feel.

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I hear you, RLP. I've been there too, lost in responsibilities that I must (or choose to) take care of. My self gets hidden behind so many obligations that I feel like I sometimes am only roleplaying in life. The good news is that I moved through that dark period of doubt, and there was light on the other end. I guess its just part of the journey for those who are willing to dig beneath the surface of life. I found some peace with this journey. I pray you do too.

To be honest, this post reminded me a lot of the book of Job. The more you talked about all the things that you could lose, and what would be left of you if you did, the more I thought about Job.

At the same time, I found it interesting that you said that you gave all these pieces of yourself to all these things. I didn't feel that I really lost pieces of myself to my children, in so much as I found brand new pieces, same thing with my wife. Unfortunately, and getting my car broken into AGAIN this Saturday reminded of me this, eventually I will lose everything. Everything that I hold dear will one day be stripped away from me, and this body that pulls me through it will again turn to the dust. The world will spin on without me, with maybe a few fleeting memories fluttering around through people's minds. I don't think you're buried at all. I don't think you've lost yourself. You're not just some fleshy mass hidden who's been emptied out. I think you are defined by the people you love and those whose lives you touch, because preacher, in this world....that's all that matters. Those are the building blocks, fashioned by the intangibles that only the soul can see. Those are what form the RLP that people will remember, the one who God uses on a daily basis. Those are what God gave you to build you into the person you are. You're not lost under duties or responsibilities or titles. You're exactly the you that the creator intended. And now I end with one last thought....

"But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of knowing Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish that I may gain Christ..." Phillipians 3:7,8

I don't mean to sound like a dime store theology lesson here, but is it not true that who we are as Christians is the sum total of who we are in Christ? If this be true then we must not confuse the roles we play as husband, father, pastors, writer, ECT. as our true identity outside of our relationship with God the Father, Son, and Spirit lest we live out these identities in our flesh and not to the glory of God alone.

Is this not truth or did I miss something along the way?

I, too, know the Sunday school answers. I, too, hesitate to use them. They've lost meaning to me, and while they might be truthful, they are not so often honest. I find that my writing demands honesty, so in my writing I cannot use those Sunday school answers. Otherwise, I'm only lying to myself, like you said. But what I think might be a bigger problem is this. If I lie to myself in this way, I am actually passing on a shallow faith. If I mask myself, those who watch me won't be encouraged toward authenticity. Thus, I lie not only to myself, but also to anyone who may be watching.

I appreciate this post. I have been questioning who I am apart from my roles, and who I might have been if I had not tied my mooring ropes to the people in my life that I have. And where we might be going, me and all these people I am tethered to.

It's too much... too much to know, to understand. I am encouraged, maybe more than ever before, that this moment is all I have right now. To remember that, whenever I can. That this moment is all I really have to be present to the people I am with, to be present with myself, and to make the best choices I can make.

I don't know if that relates at all to what you wrote, but it's what came to mind for me.

Chris(tine) [TatteredThoughts blog]

"I fear you would shrink from the homunculus that would emerge..."

My understanding of Christianity isn't perfect, but is this not supposed to be true of everyone? You ask us to consider what is left once we metaphorically strip away your RLP persona, your position as pastor of a church, your fatherhood, your marriage. What would be left of any of us, after that? Just the "homunculus" of any fallen man, a sinner. Your final redemption, so I understand, can only come from God. But while you're among the rest of us, those societal obligations (or, more generously, social ties) work to restrain the worst of that homunculus, to redeem you for the society of Man. Your willingness to enter into them is one of the rare indications that while Man may be fallen, he is nevertheless capable of striving for good.

"For better or for worse, I gave myself away."

We all do; we hope for the better. The other choice is inevitably for the worse, in any case.

M.

Hmm. Thanks for the clarification, Gordon.

"I find that many Chritians are better at saying what they wish were true than admitting what is true within them. For me, I don't see the point in lying to myself, especially not in writing."

Life just is. And if you live it in truth there's really no way to go wrong even if it is messy. I wouldn't miss it for anything.

"Will having said, "Must not" make any difference then?"

No, it does not. We will be who we are regadless of whether someone shoves self righteous mandates down our throats or not.

RLP, I receive your wisdom. I must confess however that having lived for so long in a Fundamentalist Baptist world I find it very difficult to harmonize faith with the reality of my own fallible humanity. In a world where there is so little grace one is forced to live apart from the reality that we can be flawed humans and still be loved by God.

And I know what you mean when you say that the roles do get confused. I think I've had the roles confused for a lot longer than I have been willing to admit.

I am struggling with all the roles I have taken on in my life and I find myself living to the expectations of others who help define those roles. There is Truth in those expectations that are placed on me, willingly accepted or imposed.

What I feel God is calling me to do is to seek who is the common self in each role I have agreed to play? How do I make certain that I am living an undivided life? How do I work so that no matter which "hat" I wear I am unmistakably seen as Me, a child of the Divine? Am I playing or wearing a role that does not cherish and support my authentic witness? Then how do I change the role or lay that one aside? Is there someone who can carry this burdern for me as I labor with it? Who will hurt if I discontinue a role and who will be nourshed if I do?

It's hard for me to do this. I want to be many things for many people. Isn't that arrogant of me? It is a very difficult act of humility to practice this and I fail often. But it is so sweet when I can surrender all roles and find myself fully and completely held in Love. It doesn't happen often because I usually get in the way of God, but when it does I am whole.

Seems to me you may have a few of those pieces coming back to you. Those whom you love, those whom you embrace, those of us who read you and vibrate in sympathy....we're tied to you too. We might all be fellow homonculi crawling along.

And that's okay. I still enjoy the ride. MMM

Your essay raises an interesting and important question which is, can our "self" be known or discerned (I know, a SS word) apart from our roles, relationships and obligations. I recently read something very helpful which made the distinction between the 'soul' and the 'self'. Self is a popular word, but it is ultimately a lonely word that tends to isolate and operate not in the depth of which you write but at the surface of life. Soul is word our faith gives us that implies depth and connection, the core of who we are. And it is ultimately a relational word. While I understand the confusion you describe, some of that confusion may come from the possiblity that who we are is inseparable from the relationships that form us. At a biological level we are the product of two other people, unique yes, but inseperable from our origins in another. Thanks for making me thing about this.

-Matthew

I work with very elderly people who have either chosen to or had to let go of all their roles. Some are simply able to be, and they are the people I love to be with most. Clear as a summer day. Most others cling and perpetually grieve what it lost. It is hard to be with them, they mirror all our suffering. It is good I think to practice silence as often as possible during our active years. It provides some preparation for what may come to us all if we live a very long time.

Awesome study into the quest to find out who you are. I love this kind of analysis. An interesting conclusion might be that we are indeed made of those we love and that which we are passionate about.

Isn't it really that even though we define ourselves by our roles, that in fact our roles don't define us? Relationships end. Roles come and go. You might be the Real Life Preacher one day and the Unemployed Blogger the next.

It's not what we put into our roles that drains us when they end. It is our identification with our roles that leaves us a mess when they end.

I think I may be missing the point of this essay, because it seems to me that the homonculus is, indeed, the alternative to the roles--because roles are engagement and excellence is worthwhile. What's better than worthwhile engagement?

Damn! that was a good post.

"Only the self burns in hell," said someone wiser than me.

It sounds like your suffering stems from attachment to your self.

If you could lose that attachment wouldn't you be closer to God?

buddy get over yourself... you maybe just afraid to be human... your own fear is gonna eat you up... narcissism is a killer... fight it man... give in to Christ... die to self... don't just talk about it... don't just muse... shit of get off the pot and be... be for Him...not some prescribed thing that your church molds you into... get over yourself... shut the blog down and do something for him instead of this introspective drivel... go be...

No one in the world has any idea what you are saying.

Sure we do.

Metamessages-R-Us.

I understand exactly what you are saying, rlp.

I don't understand you Seenyor Anonomous Flamer dude. Since when is self reflection ever fearful? When you don't look at it because you're afraid at what you might see, that's when. And that's the opposite of this post.

Honest introspection is not drivel; how can anyone who has read rlp's work consider it petty or fearful in any way?

RLP is going in at zero to the bone. You can't get any more fearless than that.

You would be exactly what God intended you to be when he breathed this world into existance...but you and I know, you would be less than what you are today.

Praise God for his wisdom...and His gifts.

We both deserve neither.

love,

"Pepe"

I was thinking on the way to work this morning - I am the hole formed by everyone's expectations and demands, the white vase between the two black faces. Not actually there, just the void and a trick of the observer's eye.

Then I come here and find you writing about the same thing (but better, obviously). Are we just the sum of the roles we play? If there is nothing inside the shell, will it collapse?

Thanks for this.

Chris.

Have you ever read The Four Agreements by Miguel Ruiz? I like how he describes self as light. Each person is a light. Darkness is required in order to recognize you are light, and everyone carries a light with them. Relationships bring the light together, and lights joined make the light stronger when it's shared. When you recognize the light withn it's easier to see the light in others.

I'm certain this is not exclusive to Toltec mythology. But I'm not certain if this has any relevance to the original post. I hope it does somewhere.

I go to work because I am a father and husband with obligations. I set my alarm in the morning because I am a father and husband with obligations. I am faithful because I am committed to a marriage. I strive to become more Christ like. I strive to be a good manager at work. If I had no obligations, no goals, no wife, no children, no job, no faith, what would I be, a homunculus or maybe something much worse. I am thankful for those obligations, goals and commitments.

There is a defensiveness to the post above that I do not understand. Perhaps the preacher touched a nerve by painting a less than attractive picture of how he feels after the obligations and commitments are stripped away. Far more unattractive are those who 'soldier on' because they fear the face of their own homunculus or lack the capacity for deep introspection. I signed my earlier post, but have now logged in. I do think it is helpful in situations like the one you describe, preach, to see how role-playing often limits our ability to relate at a deeper level, to allow our souls to reflect our relationship to God as created; our relationship to others as son, brother, spouse, father, pastor, friend; and our relationship to the rest of creation as one who relies on food, and air, and water to live. There are some attachments we cannot release in order to be. They are part and parcel of our being because our being is always interconnected. That can feel oppressive, or if you feel isolated and alone it can be a word of hope.

Raise your hand if you had to look up the word "homunculus".

I think it is amazing that this dialogue is taking place. And I think the reason I do find it so amazing is because we all are apparently struggling to make sense of this "homunculus". Does it change if we assume roles that craft our identities. What if one of those roles is as a child of God? Does our incomplete comprehension of that definition negate the regenerative process that the homunculus obviously undergoes when made into a new creation - IN CHRIST?

I am not willing to sit here and speak for every one but I do think that there are some here, present company included, who find it difficult to throw out all the baby of Sunday School lessons and all the Christian phrasiology with the proverbial bath water of humanity. Humanity and Christianity are not mutually exclusive, therefore to ignore the catch-phrases of the church that so many of us grew up with is to forget that those phrases do have meaning in the context of faith in Jesus Christ. If they do not have meaning, obviously, because you do not understand them, then how as a pastor and teacher of the word are you able to tell someone that they can have a relationship with the living God and know even the most minute degree of what that relationship is.

If we be in Christ, then stripped of all the other shit are we not still in Christ? Is not the homunculus now a new creation having passed from the shell into an eternal existance, or do you beleive in a different Gospel?

Gordon,

I am not the Anonymous who threw out all of the catch phrases. I am however the Anonymous to whom you offered the last word, so I will take it.

I chose anonymity in my last entry because I needed to become someone else. I apologize for attacking you and yes I am a coward. Who I am does not matter anyway. I just needed to step out of character for a moment and get some things off my chest.

I do see where you are coming from with regard to all the phrases the other Anon said. Indeed we all mean something different in the words we use. It makes it difficult to hold a conversation, especially in the forum.

Perhaps I did have the metaphors reversed. Just so you will know what I meant exactly I will tell you plainly. I fear that all too often those who call themselves Christian go to one of two extremes: They either deny their humanity and embrace their interpretation of God (faith - think name it claim it), or they deny God in order to embrace themselves as a god ( I think therefore I am shit).

This post has apparently caused many people to look at themselves and seek a balance between these two extremes. I read an article the other day that quoted someone as saying that we do not know what the Gopsel is. We do not know what it really means to be saved. This dialogue has forced me to consider that as a possibility.

Your post has caused me to look deep within and ask if I want to remain in the ministry and if so, what do I preach? What do I teach? What spin will others put on my phrases? Do the metaphors of old still apply? If you strip away all that we do as ministers of the Gospel what identity remains? As you so well pointed out,to do so would means giving away everything that makes us who we are.

I will shut up now. Thank you for listening to a fool. Enjoy your trip to the mountains. God lives there you know?

I know that you plan to walk away from this discussion, but I'll make a pitch to get you to stay engaged. You fired up a lot of people here with what you had to say, and I was one of them. Good. Thank you. Creative writing is about ideas - and about refining them. I am not much of a writer, but I tried workshopping a paper last year, so here's my shot at workshopping yours here.

So here is the gist of what I understand of your article. I heard you say that you were wondering what would be left if you could somehow remove all the aspects of you that relate to some role that you play -- be it RLP, paster, father, husband. You seemed to say, "Not much." Then you drew the conclusion that you had given yourself away to these roles and these people who make up your community.

I really liked your questions. They made me wonder what I would be like, too. Especially, the three sisters part (for me it's two, but they "Own" me in a very real way, too).

I really wonder where the "I've given myself away." came from. All those roles are community roles - they form and shape us as much as we give to them. So have we truly given ourselves away? Those with whom I am in community are as much given to me as I am to them. I'd like to hear what you have to say about that.

I ended up wanting to point out that my choices are part of what define who I am. These obligations, duties, and relationships that I choose sharpen me and help me to grow. So, is the humonculus really, in any sense, me? I don't think so.

Thanks for writing such a provocative post. I apologize for being so slow about getting this out to you. I hope your trip is wonderful.

wow.

I second that emotion.

Wow.

Gordon, we need more people like you in the world. I hope you inspire others to do the same. I know you have to me. :) Thank you.

What is identity? "I exist"

Who am "I"? That which is conscious of itself, a separate mind from the rest of the universe. But that which constitutes my body, and gives me a mind, is but a physical husk made of star dust.

Where do we find our identity? In being a father? Husband? Employee?

We need labels. They comfort us. Unfortunately, they aren't "I".

-Daniel Morgan-

Okay, I read all these posts, and didn't find this thought, so here: Is it that we give ourselves away to these roles, or that we embrace these roles and become something new, in the same way that flour, water, sugar, and eggs become something new when they're combined? They're still part, but now they're inextricably combined into a new thing. So I don't lose anything when I combine with my husband - I create something new. There is no humonculus underneath all my roles, for me at least. And taking away one or more of these things would also mean a new thing is created AGAIN - it would be quite different from what I am now because the subtraction would alter me so extremely.

Does that make sense? I am the gestalt of my "roles" and choices - more than the sum of my parts, not covered by them but mixed into them and become their same essence. I can remember the "me" before I changed because that is the human condition - we have memories of choices, and can reflect on them. But I just have a sense that, for me at least, there is no buried Sarah underneath, no whole whose parts have been given away. I am a new creation, with memories of the old.

That's my experience, at least.

Right, I know what you're saying. What I feel for myself, at least, is that these things have, in a sense, given me ME, rather than I giving myself to THEM, if that makes sense. So my question becomes, do we give our "true self" away to our new roles/relationships, or do THEY glom onto our "true self" and thus alter it to a new thing? I don't actually know the answer, of course...your post has made me reflect on it some.

I find that for my friends that got married young, for example, their "foundational self", if you will, has been formed through that marriage. Since I came late (29) to marriage, I had already formed a "foundational self", and feel less like I have been shaped by my marriage than they have been shaped by theirs.

Okay, not exactly true. What I mean is, I have a resource within myself that, because of being unpartnered through my 20's, is whole and able to stand on its own. My friends who were married early in their 20s don't have this, by their own accounting - they don't know themselves as individuals, but as part of a pair, and the idea of being alone is quite alien to them.

How does that relate? Well, heck, I don't know. ;)

I'll tell you what would be left.
I am the sum of my commitments. I took them on willingly and I expected to be defined by them. I am what I do. I am who I married. I am my daughter's father. These things were not only a commitment to me but a relief. The external definitions gave me a solid place to start from and to return to. As I find out more about myself I find new ways to understand what is happening to me, and what is happening is defined by what is without. I was shapeless before I had something to grow from.
When my mate left me, when my mate took our daughter away, and said that what she did, I was doing to myself, I was cast adrift. I lost my anchors. I was a husband. And a father. Now, what am I? I still am a father, two days out of 14, and I am reminded of my loss every Sunday night like clockwork. The regularity allows me to contemplate the separation in great and painful detail. Twelve days out of 14 I still wonder why I stay on this ride. I am without value, and I live only for the two. If I had lost my job at the same time, the way your friend Tom did in your stories, I would have gotten off. There would have been no way I could have gotten thru what he did.
I was rereading your book this evening, getting ready to give it away to another who needs it as I did when I first picked it up, and afterwards I came here to see what you've done since. This story hit a nerve; it made me angry where nothing I've read from you has before. You seem a man wise beyond your years, how could you not see what your other option might look like?
For better or worse, Mr. Atkinson? I'll tell you, your obligations are for better. And staying the course is not an option, it's all there is. My mate is gone. And she has no concept of the cost of her decision, because she has not had to pay it. And your peace of mind, the thing that lets you take the bad with the good, is absolutely dependent on you and your people being the obligations they took on. A brick in the wall kind of thing.
Sorry. I know you know this. But I had to say it to be sure I know it myself.
Doug in Little Rock