Anglican Prayer Beads  Prayer Beads  Anglican Rosary Rosaries  Natural Soap  Handmade Soap

It's a nice thought experiment, although I don't found the article to have very little relevance. Iraq is a mess. What do we DO NOW! Wishful thinking about regrettable past decisions is easy.

America is "gifted" (and I use that word loosly) in 2 areas more than any other country. Our first gift is the military, we've tried using that, and I agree that its been a total faliure. The second gift is wealth. I dont understand why we couldnt pump jobs and opportunity into that reigon - we'd be a lot less hated, people's lives would actually get better, angry young men would have much less to be angry about if they are making money. Maybe that's too simplistic, or too crude, but it's a positive action that might take us forward instead of backward.

Many people still have notions of moral responsibility in public affairs that date from the Middle Ages. Back then, the government (in the person of the king) owned everything and everyone. When the king sinned in private or public affairs, it was his sin for which he was answerable to God. And when you or your neighbor sinned, the king was also answerable to God for that, because he allowed you, his servant, to sin.

For us, living in a republic where we are individually sovereign and the government is chosen by us, moral responsibility is reversed. We own the government. When the government sins, we all sin. When our neighbors sin, we are partially responsible for it, but as friends who could have given advice, not as masters who could have given orders.

Far too many of us are willing to ask our government to sin to protect us, without realizing that in doing so, we share in the responsibility for these sins.

A friend of mine suggested generosity as a tactic we haven't tried yet. Problem is, I'm not sure what we could be generous with--and I'm not sure the enemy is interested in anything we could offer.

Another problem is that word we. We don't know what our leaders know, and what they do tell us is not the truth, so it's impossible for me to come up with even the most naive of anti-terrorism or terrorism-neutralization ideas, let alone a realistic or insightful one.

Maybe all we--the actual "we," meaning you and I, not the abstraction of The People--can do about terrorism is nothing, but we can tend our gardens. I know I can control how I act and how I teach my children. I don't think I can control much else, short of casting a vote or ranting on a blog. I simply don't have access to the right levers.

If I did... I suppose I'd try to find a way to admit and atone for our mistakes while still using military force against those who actually pose a clear threat. Sort of "We screwed up, and here's what we're doing, and what we will continue to do, to try to make amends. However, if you attack us, you will die."

I don't think there's a productive way forward that doesn't include diplomatic, humanitarian, and military action. Unfortunately, I also don't think our administration is up to it. So that whole garden-tending thing seems most pragmatic.

Pema Chodron has written an interesting book *Practicing Peace in Times of War*. I've also recently been reading Shantideva's *The Path of the Bodhisattva* in which there is a lengthy mediation on anger and patience. I know it's not "Christian" but I've found it quite salubrious. Also, given that our current penchant and enthusiasm for militarism is unlikely to slacken, these readings are helpful for the individuals who find themselves unwilling participants in the maddening and escalating cycle of violence.

Celle T.

There's a great, very readable little book called "Occidentalism, The West in the Eyes of Its Enemies" by Ian Buruma and Avishai Margalit. It goes back in history to explain where the Islamic extremist's hatred of us began.

But, what to do? This one is really tough because they hate us without possibility of parole. And it is their intention to kill and destroy all that smacks of Western culture and wipe it and us off the face of the earth. It's in their Fatwas. They announce it in speeches. How does one "negotiate" with this kind of hatred? I do not believe that killing them pro-actively is a good choice. And I also don't believe that what we're doing is exacerbating anything. I believe it is what it is right now until we can find a really creative way to fix it. The terrorists think we're the one's who broke it. And the scary thing is that they believe they win either way: If they die, they get untold riches and paradise and if they don't, then we're dead.

We need to pray long and hard and listen with open minds for God's word on what to do. I do not believe there is anything on the table right now that's going to help.

L.J. Van Cleave

RLP asked for commments on the article in the Christian Century. I'm not interested in debating the merits of national soul-searching versus a military response; I'll just note that they're not mutually exclusive.

But the article is loony on at least two points: (1) the notion that the imagined speech by Bush would ever, at any time at all, have had even a remote chance of favorable reception, and (2) the notion that the centerpiece of Bush's response should have been to call for help ... from Muslim lawyers!

I'm usually sympathetic to efforts to challenge Americans' common naivete about international affairs, and I'm pretty receptive to complaints about American arrogance and too-quick resort to military measures. But when it comes to naivete and knee-jerk responses, the author of this piece beats Bush flat.

Gordon, you're a native Texan: are all Texans as single minded as the Current Occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue? :-) I agree with the comments above. President Bush simply wouldn't ever make such a speech. But a fellow can dream, can't he?

I did feel the remainder of the piece was noteworthy. The tragedy of the World Trade Center bombings was just a piece of what Europe experienced over the course of the 20th century, and the writer makes it very clear that the experience of being ground zero for WWI and WWII now shapes European thought in ways we Americans can't even imagine. I've traveled extensively in Ireland, London and Germany. I know that when you stand where entire cities were flattened by much less precise weapons, and you realize the cost and effort it required to rebuild those cities, your perspective on what's happened in America changes quickly. Europe didn't mourn only for the horror of what happened at the World Trade Center: they mourned because they KNEW the depth of our pain, personally and intimately. But the overwhelming majority of Americans, through little fault of their own, simply aren't able to comprehend this: we don't have the collective experience. Until we do, military responses will always be our first and preferred option, unfortunately, unless we elect leaders wise enough to seek other means of interaction with the world.

Ironically, I posted a two-part essay yesterday morning which addresses the same issue in a similar fashion; see "Is There Hope?", Pts 1 & 2:
http://jacsongs.blogspot.com/2007/01/is-there-hope-pt-one.html
http://jacsongs.blogspot.com/2007/01/is-there-hope-pt-2.html

Jonah
http://jacsongs.blogspot.com

I saw the author's 'Bush Speech' as being more in the spirit of alternative history, like Orson Scott Cards's book "Pastwatch" (an amazing book, by the way)... of course that speech would not have happened, and if it had, we would not have received it well. There was too much confusion and pain in the immediate aftermath for such a well-thought-out and peaceful plan... but we can imagine how things might have played out with such an approach, and that can enable us to learn from our mistakes and work towards REAL peace by actually peaceful means.

oops... that was me.

RLP here,

Sometimes I notice that people have a hard time accepting the fact that there are no good solutions. They will cling to an old solution, desperately defending it, or sometimes they will passionately tell you what they WANT to be true.

But sometimes there are no easy answers, no good solutions, no way out without hurting people. In these times I want to say, "You're telling me what you want, but I'm talking about what is possible."

The solution (if there is one) to terrorism is going to be a long time coming. Perhaps we should act in ways that seem morally right to us. Pursue justice and engage in conversation. And let whatever fallout is happening take place.

But of course, this will never happen because we are talking about governments. Back to that "you're telling me what you want, but I want to talk about what is possible" thing.

Sadly, I'm not very optimistic about our administration or even our country's ability to negotiate these waters.

I don't think that terrorism is a new thing. I think it was an illusion that one could keep peace through the threat of destruction. The problem of learning to see the stranger as your neighbor and ultimately beloved is centuries old. I don't mean to be simplistic, but the heart of the gospel to me is that it is both simple and very hard to overcome evil. Share. Speak of good things. Don't love money. Be filled with mercy and love.

Here's one thing I think Christians could do right now. I have tried and failed many times: Quit calling Bush and Cheney fools and idiots. Don't stop rationally and calmly arguing for alternatives, and making an urgent case for a different way, but quit ranting. According to the gospel, it's wrong. It's fun, but it's wrong.

If we can't do that, if we can't discipline ourselves to quit venting our spleens, how can we ever get to the work of understanding our neighbors around the world?

"Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed."

I've been wrestling with the issue of faith and politics for a while, and I've decided that for me, 2007 is to be the Year of Wrestling as I try to work out some denominational and faith issues I have, and as I decide just what I'm going to be doing after seminary.

And because this is half-thought-out, it will probably make only half sense, but I stand by it as a pretty true picture of where I am right now.

I'm of course having trouble reconciling what we've been doing as a nation with what I hold fast to and believe. But even more than that, I'm having trouble reconciling what happens in the world with what I read in scripture. It's not that there are no good people of faith in the world. It's that what I believe as a Christian so totally separates me from what the world believes that it is hard for me to reconcile the two worlds I live in. I don't mean that I intend to functionally separate myself--after all, I vote the way my heart tells me to vote, and my heart is informed by my faith. But I am left to wonder what the role of good Christian folks is supposed to be in the world. And that's one reason why a career in politics, for me, seems impossible.

I read Matthew recently and re-discovered that I have followed very few of the instructions Jesus set out for us to insure a happy entrance to heaven. And I had thought I was doing pretty well.

We're supposed to turn the other cheek. We're supposed to trust that God will protect us if we follow His word. I translate this in terms of the terrorists that we are not supposed to worry about it (consider the lilies and all that) and just go about what God wants us to do according to His word. So, if they're gonna come and kill us, they come and kill us. I don't think all this saber rattling and gnashing of teeth and article writing is what Jesus had in mind.

Great article ... where's that time machine when we need it? If only, we could go back in time and make that speech happen. What can we do now?

This past fall I heard Philip Yancey say this concerning the Deck of Cards the administration put out with pictures of the 'most wanted' terrorist on ...
"What if each person in America would have taken one card and prayed for that person, rather than celebrate when we were told how many and which ones were now killed?"

My thought ... it is not too late to start now. I'm not being 'pollyanna' and it doesn't work like a vending machine, but talking to God can change the world.

Anyone watch the Congressional hearings today? I'm no expert, but those retired generals are and they say there is no good solution. I'm apt to take them at their word. In my estimation, there is only one viable option - cut our losses and get out of there. As a conquering force in Iraq, we have no obligation to nation-build and, honestly, no capacity to do it either. Everyone fears civil war, but its inevitable. The sooner we let them have at it, the sooner it will be resolved.

We need to pack our bags and begin fighting the real war - the battle for the hearts and minds of common folk in that region.

I've spent the last week reading a lot about the Indian boarding schools in the US and Canada. It seems we're only happy if we're the terrorists.

"Fool me once. Shame on you. Fool me twice. Shame on me." (I think our President had a little problem reciting this...but...)it is TRUE. Only a fool will try to negotiate with a completely unreasonable person (or nation). We are dealing with a culture of death. A culture which not only does not agree with us, but which totally does not THINK as we do. When it comes to values and goals, we are from different planets. Our mothers do not raise our children with the idea that murdering the "other"(infidel)and committing suicide in the process, taking out women and children and anyone who does not share your belief system...that is to be the goal of life. The foundations of "death to the infidel" and "all men are created equal...life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" can NEVER see eye to eye at the conference table. Do not be deceived. These terrorists are worshipping a different god. It is not the God of the Bible. There was a time when Jesus said to turn the other cheek. There was also a time when He told his disciples to take up their swords. The Christians facing death to protect the Jews from the Nazis during the holocaust would have wondered in amazement as such thinking. There is a time to turn the other cheek. It is almost always in the micro (individual) part of our lives. But in the macro (national) experiences of life, God did not tell the nation of Israel to "turn the other cheek" to the enemies in their land. He told them "to drive them out." Problem is, they seldom fully obeyed God. I am not advocating such tactics in this time. But it is time to wake up, use wisdom, stop playing politics and don't allow ourselves to be sucked back into the Dark Ages ....or at least that mentality... by this enemy that seems determined to do just that.

Marcia in CA

Hi,

Have anyone of you folks lived in the Midlle East or a Muslim country for any period of time not considered. The great majority of Islamic Countries are filled with people without hope. This lack of hope does not come from the West but from their own government and most importantly ISLAM.

I am not for the war in IRAQ and think it was wrong!!!!!

ISLAM is the real root of these terrorists. Yes, we have lots of responsibilities and need to build bridges with Syria and Iran. Oh something you won't here very much on the news is the number of Iranians coming to Jesus every single day in Tehran is amazing.

Tim

Check out this post from Jan Edmiston at achurchforstarvingartists:

http://churchforstarvingartists.blogspot.com/2007/01/humility-quotient.html

She also has a bit on dining with a young marine on his way to Iraq.

http://churchforstarvingartists.blogspot.com/2007/01/firstborns-friend-t.html

RLP, you ask, What's possible?
I'm reminded by the commenters here, and by Jan's posts, that to get to The Answer we may need a lot of little answers.
And I wonder: Am I asking the right questions?
Can I answer "what's possible?" before I answer "what do I want?"
What happens if we don't come up with the same answers?
I don't mean this at all as a criticism, but merely a stab at an honest question from an easily befuddled brain: Are we ready to talk about Iraq when we can't keep the peace in our own churches? (see Jan's Humilty quotient post)
Maybe to start to answer your question: Is there a model among the community of believers that reflects what we want for the community of nations? If not, can we create one? If so, how?
Ok, those were all questions, not answers, right?
By the way, I enjoy your blog ... good hangout.
-jd

Come on preacher! Speak up! Make your voice known here as it pretains to Islam as the (alleged) cause of terrorism, and what it means to be christians in an age of religious plurality.

Hi,

I have lived in a Muslim Country in the Middle east. I have listened to Muslims who have no hope and have no peace in Islam. No matter how good a Muslim is, he is never sure of enetering in to paradise, because Allah is capricious. He does what he wants to whom ever he wants. When was the last time you heard of Christian nuns blowing themselves up. If you want to the west bank and entered a primary school for children. You know what would be on the walls of the clssroom. Pictures of all the matryrs that have blown themselves up in Israel. If you went to the local store you could buy matryr cards-like baseball cards like we have in the US. The kids trade and collect them.

Does the US use violence unjustly, yes, Vietnam, Iraq.

As for Christians in the US ingorning the poor, people who have Aids, gays, etc.... I agree. We have idols of money and satisfying the flesh instead of living the the truth and love of Jesus.

Go live in Muslim country.

I would like to make a correction to my original post. I want to be specfic that it is the Wahibi sect of Islam based in Saudi Arabia and Shia Islam based in Iran that I am really addressing in my criticism as being the most inclined toward violence.

Ask a Muslim there thoughts on homosexuality- the ones I know say they should be thrown off a cliff. Some of the Christians in the US are filled with hate towards homosexuals. This is not the way of Jesus.

Jesus calls us to love everyone. I pray for the person who molested me when I was a child..

Tim

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the Islamic religion itself is the problem and that all Muslims should be treated as suspected terrorists (a completely erroneous assumption; can't believe I even typed it) - and as Anne Coulter once suggested, we should convert them to Christianity or they should be killed.

Which is more likely to work? 1) exterminate them; 2) convert them to Christianity by force; 3) convert them through persuation.

I submit #1 would never work and how could we call ourselves Christian if we pursued it? #2 seems to be the current (if unstated) policy - not working so well, is it?

How about we try #3?

I do not agree at all with the Christian Century article, because although it sounds like a touchy-feely-wonderful solution (and I really do wish it would work!), I don't believe that approach would work for a minute. That is because of the big differences in our cultures.

I think one of our biggest problems has been in not really studying the culture of those we are dealing with. When you do not take the time to understand the culture, you cannot formulate any kind of intelligent approach to problems.

Right after 9-1-1, I remember hearing a very popular political commentator saying he didn't want to understand them, just go get 'em! Whether you want to make peace or get even, either way, it is just the smart thing to know who you are dealing with.

I wrote a reply to this post last night, and it disappeared when I published it. So I invite all of you to come read my blog entry titled
"Religion, Vision and Understanding." Which is based on the Christian Century article, the preachers post and the comments here.

http://jeremiahandrews.wordpress.com/

See you over there, and we can continue this discussion with a little University education and world perspective on Islam. I'm sure it will crank some of your motors...

Cheers
The Preacher Jeremiah

Hi,

I agree. No 3 it is and all Muslims are not terrorists.

Tim

http://jeremiahandrews.wordpress.com/

This discussion continues over on my blog with Religion, Vision and Understanding as well, Comments from the Preacher Boy. Come join in.

Jeremiah

We need to reach out to the moderates who are not terrorists but are their uncles and brothers and sisters and workmates. Give them a few examples where they can say, see? The Americans ARE fair and they do want the best for us, we CAN work together. For example if we could get things working in Afghanistan, or try to broker peace between Israel and Palestine. And without positive examples middle eastern countries might just as well ally with Russia or China, in fact some of them are, even though they don't share a common religion.