Soft True Strong & You

January 31, 2007 - 1:18pm

Children are so soft. Their skin is fragrant and pure, like baby leaves. Their minds are eager and ready, their hearts are trusting and open, and their eyes will lead you softly to the very bottom of their souls.

Children know God because God can be found in the soft places of the world. In mother’s hands and in father’s soft shirts. In laughter and at dinner and in the goose bumps that rise when lips slide across skin.

It is a terrible thing when soft, childish flesh meets the hard steel of religion. We cut through children like butter. In our collective unconscious there is a swishing sound. It is the sound of the swords of Herod’s men rising and falling on the children of Bethlehem.

O little town of Bethlehem, how still we see thee lie.

Take a deep breath now, and free your mind. Do you remember when your spiritual softness was taken from you?

Did it happen at church?

What sort of church was it? Was it a brick building in the suburbs? Was it a synagogue or a mosque or a cathedral? Was it the secret church of one man’s desire, or the feral church of neglected children? Was it the cold sanctuary of science that stole your myths and left you wounded and empty and suckling at the stars? Or did you construct your own lonely chapel, like Saint Frances, barefoot and one stone at a time?

I was wounded along the way. It happens to everyone. Life is hazing. It’s one big rite of passage from beginning to end. I grew tough as leather, deeply protected, calloused, and hard. But I worked my leather with the oil of my hands and with tears and time until I became soft again. And soft, worn leather is such a comfort to have and to hold.

Now I guard children’s hearts against all religions, sacred and secular. I will throw myself at you, church man. Stay away from that child’s mind. Let her be a pagan; let her be a skeptic, a scientist, or a saint. Let her be any or all of these, but for God’s sake, let her be.

Let her be because her soul was never yours for the taking. If you lay your hands on her, she will grow hard, and still she will not be yours. But if you love her and let her and listen to her and allow her, one day she may return from the far country, fully grown and newly wise.

And soft, still soft. And strong, so strong.

rlp

To the middle sister, my string of pearls,

That’s a big heart you’re dragging around these days, and you’ve only just discovered how hard life can be.

Play the hand you were dealt.

Be soft.
Be true.
Be strong.
Be you.

-Daddy

 

Submitted by Janet on January 31, 2007 - 1:48pm.

Wow ... the essay is wonderful and the poem at the end ... priceless. I pray the middle sister will be able to understand the value of the gift she has been given.

Submitted by Anonymous User on January 31, 2007 - 2:29pm.

Oh, the ache of a parent's heart when their child hurts.

Curt in KC

Submitted by aychje on January 31, 2007 - 2:39pm.

Amen. Just... amen.

I'm a Christian Education Director and it bothers me, the number of times we try to tell children what to believe and what's right and wrong and what God thinks and what God believes and what God wants and what it all means. What makes grown-ups think WE have it all figured out?? Sometimes I think practitioners of Godly Play methods have the right idea. Everyone is invited to wonder together, and draw their own conclusions.

"I wonder... I wonder what made Herod so angry... I wonder if Herod was afraid... I wonder if any mommys and daddys hid their children away from Herod's troops... I wonder if Herod would have killed all those children if someone had protected HIS innocence..."

Heather

ETA: I got on a roll and neglected to mention that while I do believe that we "tell" and "talk TO" (rather than with) children far too much, I also believe that giving no guidance at all is equally wrong. It is possible - and important - to give information and to listen and share one's own beliefs while still respecting the right of the child, as an individual with both heart and brain, to come to his or her own conclusions in the end.

Submitted by Anonymous User on January 31, 2007 - 2:41pm.

Thank you so much for posting this.

It's a pity that more people aren't like you. Too often, places of worship ostracize those who differ even slightly from the norm. I know that's been my experience, as well as the experience of many of my friends. Some of them recovered to return to the religion of their childhood, some changed religions, and some gave up on it all together, sick of being told that they had to conform if they wanted to truly be "children of God."

Over the years, I've tried to make my own path, with varying success. I've even established a Lenten tradition for myself that I hope to continue this year. It's freeing to do things for my own spiritual development instead of being told that I have to do a certain thing in a certain way. Most of all, I love the support that I get from my friends on all of this, even if my family finds it a bit odd (and scandalous) that I don't practice a tradition of personal sacrifice.

(You can find my first Lenten discussion here: http://kiji-kat.livejournal.com/174061.html. The new one is here: http://kiji-kat.livejournal.com/307863.html. You're welcome to read those entries and participate in the discussion, if you like. If not, that's fine too.)

I'm happy to know that you understand that spirituality is a multi-faceted exercise, as opposed to a standardized checklist. It's my hope that more people will learn from your example.

Submitted by thoseawake on January 31, 2007 - 2:47pm.

your willingness to throw yourself at me, the church man, gives me pause.
Thanks for helping me see the beautiful, open mind of a child.

-s.o

Submitted by rlp on January 31, 2007 - 3:05pm.

I'm a church man too. I mean, I'm the pastor of the church. That's about as "church manish" as it gets.

And I'm not one who thinks that children need no guidance in life. And it's even appropriate to tell them what you think and believe, but you can do so without trampling their tender autonomy. Truly we indocrinate so often when what is needed is to love and to wait and to allow them to develop and grow making their own decisions. But parents and organizations often want to show off a little robot child who says all the right things, even if achieving that result is to her detriment.

Submitted by Anonymous User on January 31, 2007 - 4:03pm.

I am so happy to read this that I'm about to cry... and I'm sitting in the middle of a restaurant as I type this.

As a child, I was told what I believed. Often and loudly... and by Sunday school teachers and youth group leaders whose views were not in fact those of my larger church, but I didn't know that for a long time. I was taken to an abortion protest to hold a sign without knowing what abortion was. (I am thankful that this was before the disgusting photographs were commonplace.) I was pressured to go to concerts with music I didn't like, to stand up and be "born again" at least twice a week... and I pulled away. Hard. I loved my church's services, but I stayed home.

I'm coming back, now. Slowly. I don't have a church yet. I may never have a church; I can't walk into one now without cringing away from people who try to talk to me. I don't lack faith in God--funny, I've never had anything I'd call a crisis of faith in God, just in church. But it may take me the rest of my life to recover from what they did to me in the name of Jesus.

My fiance is in a similar position. His parents were more religious than mine. They went to a much more conservative church--twice a week and he got sent to private schools and his parents still devoutly refuse to acknowledge that the world might be more than 6000 years old despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary. He was forced to attend church much longer than I was. And now the best he can say is that he's an agnostic. He was told what to believe so often that he cannot believe anymore. I hope that someday he will come back, not necessarily to Christianity but at least to being willing to have faith in *something*.

If anyone feels inclined, pray for us--not just us, but everyone who has already been through this--so that we may heal, and not inflict the same upon our own children.

Submitted by Anonymous User on January 31, 2007 - 5:07pm.

Thank you for posting this.

I grew up in a religion-free household, so I didn't lose my spirituality in any official building with a cross on top. Instead, I learned to fold it up and wrap it very securely and keep it well-hidden, during my childhood. I don't remember ever hoping I'd be able to unwrap it and clothe myself in it again. It got a little torn over the years, when I tried to take it out of storage and show it to people who didn't understand it, or else understood it very well but wanted to use it to try to suffocate or strangle me.

I'm finally in the process of taking it out of storage permanently and though I'm willing to share it with others, I'm very careful about who I share it with. It's painful, partly because of the past associations, and partly because I'm learning a new way to live.

Submitted by Anonymous User on January 31, 2007 - 5:29pm.

This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. People all over the world go to worship the Lord Jesus Christ Sunday after Sunday at the risk of losing their own lives and all we can do is whine about telling children the TRUTH.

Chinese Christians are risking their lives to preach the Gospel to everyone and we are worried about indoctrinating our children in the faith once delivered to the saints?

The problem here is that we have a uniquely American outlook. Talk to the Ethopian pastor who was attacked by Muslims with knives while preaching the Word of God. Talk to the Chinese Christian who sits in jail and rots because of his boldness to be the "church man" in order that people who hate him will be loved by him with a message that could keep them from hell.

Leave her a pagan? Follow this advice and her blood will be on your hands!

Submitted by Friendly Presence on January 31, 2007 - 5:56pm.

Dear Friend,

I grew up with parents and church goers who felt and probably would have wrote a very similar comment. I wanted to experience other religions because there was so much fear and pain taught in my own. Accusations, horrible judgements and a truly malicious things were said to people who were seeking Truth. Where was the eternal joy and love that Jesus spoke about? Where was the "good news"? It certainly wasn't in the churhces I grew up in.

I was fortunate to be given an amazing gift. I think God is big enough to allow this. I believe He knows our curious and questioning nature and sometimes when our spiritual need isn't being met in one church home he helps lead us to another, if we are open. Sometimes in that journey we find His love in non-Christian places. But for me it made me determined to practice the radical love Jesus called us to, not condemn, accuse or judge others because they couldn't find the Love needed and deserved within Christianity. That is our fault, as Christians, not theirs.

It is true that there are places where Christians are still persecuted for their beliefs. It is also true of almost any other religion. So I ask myself what is God asking of me? What was Jesus brought here to model for me? Jesus was a gentle teacher, with a grand sense of humor and irony. I don't think he needed to use guilt or self-righteouness to make a point. What was so cool about him was that he believed in the ultimate power of God's divine love to transform anyone. I've seen it first hand in the war fields of Burundi Africa. I've heard first hand accounts from Rwanda, Nicaragua and Cuba. If these Christians can practice this radical love in the face of mass genocide, war and poverty, how can we not?

Thank you friend for allowing me to reflect on your words. May you feel God's love and blessing.

Submitted by rlp on January 31, 2007 - 7:58pm.

**laughing** "The dumbest thing you've ever heard" huh? Wow, you sure know how to open a discussion in a way that fosters good interaction, don't you? I suppose your real agenda is to loudly shout your opinion and then disappear behind your anonymity. I hope you enjoyed yourself.

I've dealt with people like you all of my life. You're so very sure of yourself and your ideas. Your imaginary world parses easily into rights and wrongs, lefts and rights, conservatives and liberals. Somehow it's not enough to simply be sure of yourself. You need to crow publicly about it.

What the difficulty Christians have in some parts of the world has to do with the way I try to be sensitive to the individual journeys of my children is lost on me. But your various comments were duly noted.

I am curious about your last statement. What is the alternative - in your view- to "leaving her a pagan?" Forcing her at gunpoint to be a Christian? Bamboo shoots up the fingernails unless she says the sinner's prayer?

Submitted by Anonymous User on January 31, 2007 - 8:43pm.

Forgive me for being too direct. Indeed, this is not the way to foster interaction and for that I ask your forgiveness.

I have enjoyed many of your writings very much. I lurk here and check the site often, even if I at times disagree. God has given you a gift with words.

But this piece just made me sad and mad and disappointed and worried and I just blurted out what I did. I did not enjoy myself one bit and I assure you I have no agenda.

I too have been wounded by fundamentalism, but I also believe that the Christian faith is true. I believe strongly that there is no other way. Some can call me intolerant and overly sure of myself. But if I believe that there is a heaven and there is a hell I must share this with people. If I believe that Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life I must share this with people. It would be unloving to keep silent.

I do not think the world is easily parsed into little camps. So often I have been kicked out of someone's "camp" because I have dared to question one of the sacred taboos. Indeed my most cherished beliefs have grown fewer through the years. My Christian faith could be summarized well by the very brief and simple Apostles' Creed.

Life is not easy and not every situation is black and white. Agreed. But the statement at the end of your piece sounded like you were giving up and relinquishing your responsiblity to "train your children in the nuture and instruction of the Lord." If I missed it and misunderstood it, I'm sorry. And from the things I read here I know you love your children dearly.

No guns, no bamboo - no cohersion. But should we give up on loving instruction? Are we satisfied to leave them pagans? I hope not, too much is at stake.

Submitted by rlp on January 31, 2007 - 8:54pm.

Okay, we all do that sometimes. The publish button is rather unforgiving. Thanks for the kinder tone this time. Makes it easier to dialogue with you.

Let me tell you what I was trying to say. Whether I said it well is another question altogether. I have many writing styles. This one is a little more artsy, a little along the continuum toward poetry. So its sound and feel is as important as the words.

We take children (all of us, religious and not) and we are rough with them. We tell them what they must believe. We indoctrinate. We pass on our hatred. And we cram religion down their throats. In the short run we can say, "See what a great Christian parent I am? All my kids are baptized." But in the long run, things do not turn out that way. The kids leave home and never go back to church.

Of course not everyone does this, but it happens a lot.

My plea is to be gentle and patient with children. We are all pagans. All of us. We begin that way and we retain much of it. So if your child seems naturally inclined to be, well, natural, don't panic. Share your beliefs and let her share hers. If she is naturally skeptical, then celebrate her intelligence. Be soft and gentle because children are so impressionable. They need guidance and they need our values and they need discipline. But amidst all of that, it's good to let them be the person they are designed to be.

That was my intent anyway.

Submitted by Anonymous User on January 31, 2007 - 9:06pm.

It's me again - the harsh guy that ticked everyone off. *smile*

Again, sorry for the harshness. I appreciate the way you explained this and it makes much sense. And oddly, I agree with you.

What you have said in this last reply hits a nerve. The pressure I sometimes face as a Christian parent is unbearable. I want so badly for my kids to embrace the faith (that which I sincerely believe to be true), that I push too hard.

In reality it probably takes courage and trust in God to not be so pushy. Indeed, these are souls that God has created. So with God's help may we all become more gentle and less "violent" with our children as we seek to guide them in faith.

By the way, I guess Proverbs 15:1 really is true. *smile*

Submitted by rlp on January 31, 2007 - 9:17pm.

I have some experience with this. My oldest daughter went through a time of not believing in God. I even wrote about it with her permission.

http://www.reallivepreacher.com/node/483

We were able to talk about this, and I decided to be with her in her doubts and not to get worried. I am a Christian, so of course I hope to share my faith with my children. What I want is for them to be authentic and passionate followers of Christ's way. Doctrinal affirmations don't mean that much to me.

It's funny, once she came out of the closet and admitted to me that she was having a hard time believing in God, she felt permission to talk with me about it. I never once tried to convince her to "come back." I did a lot of listening. And if asked, I shared my views.

2 years later. She is a very serious Christian person, committed and very much a part of our faith community. She understands doubt and faith and commitment. I think it's been a good journey for her.

Now I'm NOT claiming wisdom here as though the outcome were something I planned and knew all along. She is 18. She is a free agent. Many people leave the church and never come back. But since I can't control her beliefs anyway, my choice is to fight a battle I can't win, or embrace her with love and listen to who she is.

I think the latter is the only way to go.

Submitted by Kurt on January 31, 2007 - 5:49pm.

Some people reach straight for the 2x4. And if it's truly an issue sending those kids in Sunday school to heaven or hell, this style of conversation may be appropriate. But ... is there *nothing* to the idea that too much dogma and not enough honesty leaves people with a faith that falters later? "Pack the faith into their brains good and hard, and hope they die before it leaks out." Is that really a sound tactic?, even from a fundamentalist perspective?

Submitted by Anonymous User on January 31, 2007 - 6:10pm.

You said: "...the feral church of neglected children?"

Wow! What an image that is and how it's playing with my mind! Gonna do a few more deep breaths and look at this one some more!

Thanks,

RPS

Submitted by Lit Geek on January 31, 2007 - 7:56pm.

This is powerful stuff--it takes me back to how amazed I was to find your site for the first time. In such a state of mind it's literally painful to read as harsh a comment as was posted above. Even if it is a question of salvation (something I have never, so far in my life with Christianity, been able to believe), do we expect to save children by throwing the book at them? Over and over again the book itself tells us stories of people who to find God needed to face the wilderness alone, beyond what their teachers could explain. There is no substitute for that, and a kind of teaching that prevents searching is worse than useless.

Submitted by rlp on January 31, 2007 - 8:04pm.

Hi there,

I've dealt with the harsh comments for a long time. They do not hurt me. I get way more compliments than anyone deserves, so I'm not going to get bent out of shape.

My goal is to open a vein and spill myself on the page with beauty if possible. What I say is how I see/feel/imagine things. I make no claims to wisdom or absolute truth. I describe; I don't prescribe. I'm a man trying to write - seriously and hard.

The harsh comments are a part of the "thing" here at Real Live Preacher. They remind me that I don't know everything and that I'm dealing with things that are sacred and important. So let the comments stand. The only time I get upset is if someone leaves a comment that is unkind to another commenter.

Submitted by Lit Geek on January 31, 2007 - 10:11pm.

You have, I think, a very healthy way of living with this blog. I wouldn't suggest not letting comments stand, and was only feeling tired and sad that it looked like an argument was starting. Now that the conversation has taken a different tack I feel a little silly for complaining.

In any case, all I really had to say was that I liked this essay a lot.

Submitted by rlp on January 31, 2007 - 11:07pm.

Well, this one was rare. Usually when someone opens with an insult, it is a sign that they want to fight, or insult, but not have a conversation. But this guy, whoever he (or she) is, just popped off I guess. I'm glad it turned the way it did.

Submitted by Anonymous User on February 1, 2007 - 12:08am.

As someone who is looking to enter into full-time ministry down the line, this gave me quite a pause. And quite a bit to chew on for some time to come. Thank you.

Submitted by Connor Carney on February 1, 2007 - 2:10am.

I always have trouble understanding this type of reasoning. There is a natural impulse among most of humanity to correct errors, and this is an impulse that is especially strong when dealing with children.

If a child told me that 1+1=7, I would kindly inform him that 1+1=2. It would feel vaguely irresponsible to let a person grow up believing something that was clearly in error.

I feel exactly the same impulse when it comes to Christianity. Why would we hold the truths of Christian doctrine to be less worthy of teaching than the truths of mathematics?

Submitted by papachil on February 1, 2007 - 5:22am.

I think that rlp is acknowledging that we all feel that impluse--to correct, to impose--but that when it comes to matters of the heart, this is inappropriate and, often, harmful.

Matters of faith are not mathematics. They are not blind "facts." Any faith worth having is not about intellectual assent to propositions; it is about the orientation of one's heart and affections. It is a placing of trust, a giving and receiving of love. Reciting a creed or mouthing the right theological answers is far from the point--as James the Apostle wrote, "the devils also believe, and tremble."

Faith is a falling in (or a growing into) love.

Submitted by rlp on February 1, 2007 - 7:56am.

couple of things:

Like papachili, I would say that spiritual beliefs are not like math. Perhaps you've noticed that very wide interpretation of ideas even within the Christian community. We have a hard time agreeing on the meaning of inspiration, the place and nature of scripture, the meaning and purpose of the atonement, and so on.

This ain't math we're talking about. It's an entirely different subject, one whose answers aren't nearly as concrete and obvious.

I'd also like to say that I like your phrase - "I would kindly inform." It sounds like you would kindly offer your views into the child's search, which is nice. And since the hypothetical child told you what he thought, perhaps it also means that you would listen to his ideas and not belittle or shame him.

I'm not writing about people like you.

Submitted by Kurt on February 1, 2007 - 12:43pm.

Seems like a *little* more due needs to be given to the point about 1+1=2. Facts do matter. To pick up on the idea of "falling in love": suppose your child were falling in love with someone whom you knew to be a real pack of trouble. You wouldn't just stand by.

But on the other hand, you'd have to be careful not to push too hard and damage your relationship with your child. So you'd try to navigate the fine line down the middle. Won't it be like that with faith issues, too, even if you're sure you know the truth?

Submitted by aychje on February 1, 2007 - 5:16pm.

To me, there's a distinct difference between saying "1+1=2, that's all there is to it, and you have to believe it because I said so" and saying "Here are some blocks - when you hold one in your hand and put another in your hand, how many blocks do you have in your hand now?" - and then being patient and waiting for another opportunity if the child drops the blocks or decides they're done playing with blocks and wanders off to read a book. It's the difference between bludgeoning a child with the truth of something vs. helping them discover the truth of it for themselves. It's much harder to do the second, for all kinds of reasons - we love children, we believe we know the truth, we want to prevent hurt... the reasons are as numerous as the children and the people who interact with them. But the value of allowing children to claim truth for themselves is that it becomes theirs, part of who they are, in a way that no "because I said so!" can possibly accomplish.

Submitted by Anonymous User on February 2, 2007 - 2:37pm.

When we teach children in other areas, we do not ask them to take it as a given that 1+1=2. We start with teaching counting. One apple, two apples, three apples. Then we turn counting into addition and subtraction--you have three apples and take away one apple, so you have two apples left. Then multiplication and division... we have three sets of two apples, and if you count all those, it's six apples. Split them into sets of two, and you have three apples in each set.

Christian doctrine should absolutely be taught the same way that math is *really* taught. Start with the basics. This is the Bible. This is what the Bible says, starting with simpler things and moving up to the more complex. Explain where your doctrine comes from at the same time that you're explaining it, and don't get into doctrine until they're at a level where they can understand what it means. That means you don't bring children into the homosexuality or abortion or rapture debates until they're at a level where they can interpret what the relevant passages are themselves. On the other hand, "Jesus died for our sins" should come fairly early but *is* something a child can understand.

At no point do you need to force them to believe. If you give them the information and you're *right*, which you ought to have enough faith to believe you are, they will come to the same conclusions you did. No elementary teacher requires a child to take "on faith" that 7x8=56 before they can count. They also generally don't have a problem with children deciding later that they don't really believe in multiplication. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Submitted by jhamlinn on February 1, 2007 - 5:39am.

It is an interesting woodcut at the bottom of the essay. Is the child being protected or froced down? Hard to call, as it often is with parenting and nurturing children.

I appreciated this piece. I am an ordained Christian minister working as a Director of Religious Education in a Unitarian Universalist society. There are struggles there for me. However, reading your piece made me realize that why I love it so is that this community is more open to the wonder and the questions than most I have known. Most often the sword i deal with is the knee jerk reaction of some who cannot believe that one can come to a Christian belief system or any belief system and still be Unitarian Universalist. And yet I know that rigidity is rigidity whether it be on the left or the right, the West or the East and it is born out of pain. What I can do is listen to that pain, receive and listen over and over.

I've got kids in my program who are christian, jewish, pagan, muslim, wiccan, agnostic, atheist, buddhist, jainist, naturists and on and on. But those are the labels. What I really have in my community is children who are full of questions, and I am blessed. You remind me that it is not my job to ask them the questions but my job to listen to their questions.

blessing be.

Submitted by Anonymous User on February 1, 2007 - 6:38am.

Just amazing Preach. Like you I had a daughter (my only) who told me she was having doubts about God. I must confess my first thought was "Jeez, the youth minister can't even minister to his own kid effectively". My second thought was for her. And I came to the same conclusion you did. How could I not? At her age I too had doubts, ones that drove me out of the church. In the end I realized my doubts were about the church (and still are) and not about God. We talked (and still do) about Life, the Universe and Everything.

For me a life in faith is a journey. I worry about those folks who think they can "arrive" and then live there. In my experience it's not that easy. Even more astounding is the belief that where you "arrive" at age 7 or 10 or 15 (or 25 or 35 or 45)is the perfect final destination and there is where you'll stay for all the years to come. All I try to do in my ministry is, using my own story as a guideline (both good and bad), point in the direction of God. I will walk with them as far as our individual journey's allow and as far as they are willing to have me. Sometimes that means I'm walking alongside a pagan. Yes, some pagans (and even atheists) are headed toward God. Even if they don't know it.

Neither as parent nor "church man" am I called to perfect another's journey or understanding. Sometimes I need to remember that.

Peace
Jay

Submitted by Anonymous User on February 1, 2007 - 12:18pm.

I wonder if you have seen the documentary 'Jesus Camp'. I was so conflicted viewing the conviction of the children while at the same time questioning whether it was by force or by choice (or if they could even understand the magnitude of the things they were claiming). I think this topic should get a lot more attention and maybe it will now that the movie is nominated for an Oscar.
--Lori the displaced Aggie

Submitted by Anonymous User on February 1, 2007 - 12:44pm.

Dear Preacher - this is a wonderful piece. Thank you for sharing.

Indeed, let me add that I've been reading for quite a while now and thought often about commenting but never have. It's just that this time, I needed to add an AMEN BROTHER!

We all have to come to our beliefs our own way. Some of us have a longer road than others. And many of us have periods of doubt, searching, and unbelief. It makes me happy to see a churchman acknowledge that and acknowledge that it is important not to force people but to help them walk through their own individual journey. Thank you.

Submitted by dont eat alone on February 1, 2007 - 12:53pm.

Gordon

I was reading this poem just before reading your post. They seem to go together.

The Time Before Death by Kabir (translated by Robert Bly)

Friend, hope for the Guest while you are alive.
Jump into experience while you are alive!
Think . . . and think . . . while you are alive.
What you call "salvation" belongs to the time before death.

If you don't break your ropes while you're alive
do you think
ghosts will do it after?

The idea that the soul will rejoin with the estatic
just because the body is rotten ---
that is all fanasty.
What is found now is found then.
If you find nothing now,
you will simply end up with an apartment in the
City of Death.

If you make love with the divine now, in the next
life you will have the face of satisfied desire.

So plunge into the truth, find out who the Teacher is,
Believe in the Great Sound!

Kabir says this: When the Guest is being searched for,
it is the intensity of the longing for the Guest that
does all the work.
Look at me, and you will see a slave to that intensity.

Peace,
Milton

Submitted by BillG on February 1, 2007 - 1:02pm.

You're a good man, and a fine father. Your daughters are lucky, as are all the children who get to know you.

Submitted by OldPoet on February 1, 2007 - 1:47pm.

OldPoet
I had a special relationship with church and church people as a child. I used to hide out in the two churches nearest to my home. I heard some absolute truths handed down and a good many lovely folks heard me out without a stick in the hand. The best lessons I learned about spirituality and religion and God were learned when I was alone with just God in the building, after-hours, so to speak. I assure you, God was not dealing harshly with me in those hours. If God is not into smacking some religion into kids, I'd better not be either.

Submitted by PastorBluejeans on February 1, 2007 - 3:21pm.

Sometimes we get to do Godwork (at least that's what I call it). You certainly did. Your words soothed my heart.

They reminded me it is okay to have let Daughter One wander in the wild woods of religion. To be honest and say to her, "I don't know".

And what is it five? six? seven? years later to hear her say, "I don't want to go to your church Dad because you're too liberal."

Thank you for reminding me it was okay to stand back and wait. Thank God her sweet searching wasn't beat down like her old man's

Submitted by Anonymous User on February 1, 2007 - 3:59pm.

My daughter, mid-20s, is a nurse: she's clear-minded, hugely compassionate, analytical, and incapable, it seems, of lying to herself or me or anyone else about what she believes. She doesn't consider herself a Christian. (I find it hard to write: "She's not a Christian)

It's ludicrous to think I could force beliefs on on her. She respects my faith and has a deep reverence for life and is incredibly loving, has great care for the least among us. Having been raised a fundamentalist, I sometimes feel so guilty that I don't "evangelize" more. I have to wait and KNOW that she is rooted and grounded in God's love. She is God's beloved too.

I love the verse, "God is not mocked." It means to me not so much that God won't be mocked by unbelief, but that he won't be mocked by false and stingy and narrow-minded representations of Him.

Submitted by Anonymous User on February 1, 2007 - 4:17pm.

RLP,

I am now jealous of the Three Sisters. How I wish I had a parent (or even grandparent) like you who could set aside the dogma and allow me to figure out who I am really. I might be far less screwed up if that had been the case. There would have been tears this time if that were something I was capable of. Thanks, boss.

Submitted by Keith on February 1, 2007 - 4:53pm.

It's nice when I see somebody saying this. Anybody comes at my children with a holy book--sacred or secular; religious, cultural, or artistic--and they'll learn what it's like to be a shish kebab.

Do you also protect yourself as you described? My belief is the armor's only worthwhile when it's still got a kid inside it.

I'd like a little applause for getting through that last thought without using the phrase "inner child."

Using it in the subsequent sentence doesn't count.

Submitted by rlp on February 1, 2007 - 8:04pm.

I feel pretty well protected. In part because I have spent a lot of time figuring myself out. And I'm in my 40s and really don't care what people think of me.

Except for the people who I choose to give that kind of power over me. I care what they think.

Submitted by Keith on February 1, 2007 - 8:17pm.

Do you have conscious control over who you give that power to? I usually do, but then somebody represents something or other, and zam.

Submitted by rlp on February 1, 2007 - 9:17pm.

Hmm...let's see...processing.

I don't give the power to people on the street. I do give it to friends, but if they hurt me, I can remove the power and learn not to care what they think. But it hurts while I do that.

Submitted by MMM on February 1, 2007 - 8:58pm.

Oh, little one. Listen to your daddy. He speaks true.

I was hurt like that too, and I'm finding myself softening again. It is good.

(())
MMM

Submitted by Anonymous User on February 2, 2007 - 1:16pm.

Such alot of wisdom...But mostly I'm sad that middle daughter is hurting, and send love and prayers to her, and to all the rlp family.x

Submitted by Anonymous User on February 2, 2007 - 1:45pm.

Well said.

My Christian inspiration was C.S. Lewis; he taught me not to be afraid to use logic in reasoning about God.

God loves us. It might not always be the soft, squishy love; sometimes that love might be the kind that merely cries bitterly as we do something stupid and get ourselves hurt (be it physically, mentally, or spiritually). But He loves us. And so this idea that religion should be big, scary, "don't do that or your ass is going to hell!" has to be wrong, because that's not love.

If we seek love, if we seek goodness, if we seek the light, if we demand that the universe reveal itself to us, the names don't matter, because God knows that names can confuse us. God will answer, and give us what we need. And it will be soft, like well oiled leather... and many times stronger than the harder, harsher stuff that turns out to be brittle.

Bright blessings to you, and keep fighting the good fight,

LongHairedWeirdo

Submitted by Anonymous User on February 3, 2007 - 4:51am.

i was such a pleaser they stole my soul before i even knew it. but my girlfriend just told me of her moment in time. all of the children were kneeling for prayer and someone in the church came up to her and grabbed the cross necklace she was wearing and shamed her for being so vain and brazen as to wear jewelery to church.

Submitted by Anonymous User on February 5, 2007 - 5:20pm.

I have mixed feelings on this. I understand what you seemed to mean about not trying to force your beliefs on children/teens, and I do think many people have been turned off because of this approach. At the same time, I think it can be walking a tightrope, and you can't really let it go, either, without expressing what you feel is right and/or true.

We've been going through a time like this with our 15 year old, who has been practicing wiccan. We feel very strongly that this is the wrong path, although we can see why it would be appealing. We have asked him not to keep wiccan books or practice spells here at home, as it is against our beliefs. Although he says he is not a Christian, we have asked him to either attend church with us or attend a youth group, because we feel he needs to continue to hear and learn things about our faith. We told him that we know faith is a personal journey and he will make his own decisions on that, but at his age, we feel a responsibility to try to bring him up in the path we see as being the right one.

Did we handle it right? I know people who would say we were too harsh and others who would say we were not harsh enough. I don't know. It was a very difficult call, and all we could do was try to make the best decision we knew how at the time. We do not nag at him, quote constant scripture "at" him or anything like that.

I am thankful that he has been very blunt about the issue, because we don't want him saying things he doesn't believe just to please us. And we do understand that there is a lot to wonder about and to sort out.

Submitted by rlp on February 6, 2007 - 11:35am.

Boy, if my piece in any way suggested that this is not a tightrope and a balancing issue, I certainly did not intend that. Being honest about who I am with my children is just as important a making room for who they are becoming. I think if you are asking the question of how to balance respect for their autonomy as individuals with your calling to guide and protect, then you're probably okay. It's people who do not ask the question who are often bad parents. And there are two ways to err - to give too much freedom and to give too little.

Also, age makes a difference. As I wrote this I was thinking mostly of my oldest daughter who is now 18. As they move toward adulthood, you have to grant them more and more rights to be their own person.

My gut tells me that your child's attraction to Wicca is not an authentic spiritual journey, but a reaction to you. Why do I think this? Because when young people leave the faith tradition of their parents in open ways, this is almost always what is going on. Now if he was 30 and living on his own, perhaps a choice of neo-paganism would be a more authentic choice.

And if I am right about this, then being gentle and not over-reacting is fairly critical here. Let him explore (how can you stop him anyway). If he is not very angry and can be reasonable with you, I wonder how he would react if you engaged him creatively. "Son, we appreciate your curious mind and your journey. We are going to read about Wicca and might even explore its philosophy with you. We also want you to be kind enough to attend our traditional family worship. It won't hurt you and it would mean a lot to us to be together as a family."

Hey, I have three kids, 2 teenagers. You know, we fly by the seat of our pants. Hold onto this truth. Parents who love and care and are trying hard to do the right thing and are humble enough to be learning all the way will probably be fine.

Submitted by Anonymous User on February 7, 2007 - 3:05pm.

I really appreciate your feedback on this, since it's such an active issue for us right now, and appreciate the advice.

There is no doubt that some of it is likely related to rebelling, as it is just one behavior on his list in the past year:) However, being a kid that has always had a huge imagination, wiccan has a particular draw for him.

Your last sentence is very encouraging, and we'll hang in there. I pray often that God will see him through this stage and bring him back to a true faith.

Submitted by Anonymous User on February 12, 2007 - 5:12pm.

Just a word here. The term is "Wicca", not "Wiccan". A Wiccan would be one who practices Wicca, though many--probably most--would prefer "witch". Sorry if that's uncomfortable, but it's the way it is.

I say this not to be nitpicky, but because consistently using the wrong term to refer to the belief system your son has chosen is likely to drive a wedge between you. I'm sure that's not what you intend, but it might be interpreted that way, especially by an oppressed-feeling teenager. And aren't they all? Just something to consider.

xaaronx

Submitted by rlp on February 13, 2007 - 5:14pm.

point taken.

Submitted by Anonymous User on February 7, 2007 - 7:55am.

This piece reminds me of two things: 1) Jesus' warning that it'd be better to tie a rock to yourself and jump off a bridge than to harm a little child 2) God's gift of time. Think of where you were spiritually five, ten, or twenty years ago. Me? I loved the Lord, but was very immature. The Holy Spirit, and God's grace exhibited in the passing of time, has allowed to me "grow up" some. Have I arrived? Hardly. Does God want a child to remain pagan? Hardly. But let's trust the Holy Spirit to do His good work in good time. He doesn't need our beating sticks.

Submitted by Anonymous User on February 7, 2007 - 11:52pm.

I'm sitting here WAAAYYY past time I should be asleep, and tears are coming to my eyes while I read this.

I've been wounded more than once by "church people", and I'm sad to say I've done some "wounding" of others myself.

Children learn much more by the way we live our lives than by the words we say. The children that are "allowed" to question their parents' faith (and who among us can really stop them from doing that??) will have a much better shot at developing the kind of faith that will stand strong throughout their lives.

I truly appreciate this honest discussion!

Submitted by Anonymous User on February 19, 2007 - 3:10pm.

I've never been to this site before, but I will definitely be back.
I really appreciate the thought and compassion of all the folks on the
board!

Submitted by Anonymous User on March 5, 2007 - 1:00pm.

Just saw the"Jesus Camp" documentary and I kept wanting to reread this entry all the while I was watching it.
Just curious, have you seen it?
What did you think?